HomeMy WebLinkAbout1991-12-19
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation Commission
4 North Water Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02~Et I NG 1'1 I NUTES FOR DECEMBER 19. 1991
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 p.m. in the Large
Group Instruction Room of the Nantucket High Schobl.
Commissioners present were William Willet, Laura Hussey, Henry
Wasierski, Diane McColl, Daniel Kelliher, and Peter Wilson. Also,
pr-esent were Bruce Perry, Administrator, and Lucia Wyeth,
secre,tary.
A. PUBLIC HEAR1NGS.
1. Richards - 25 E. Tristram Ave.,- SE48-609
(31-1)
Mr. Willet asks far a motion to continue at the
applicant's request, adding that we have requested they be at
the next meeting or we are going to close the file.
MOTION: To continue at the applicant's request 1S
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
2. Poor - Quidnet-SE48-635 (-20-49, 50.2, 50.3; 21- 58, 119)
3. Poor - Quidnet - S~48-637 (21-122, 118.1, 119.1,119.2)
Mr. Perry says he was with Mr. Poor today and they
discussed plans for the replication areas. Says he has
mentioned filing for the ponds a number of times and is going
to send a letter stating what we would like to have from him
at the next meeting.
MOTION: To continue at the applicant's request 1S
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
4. Dunham - Tristram Avenue - SE48-666 - <31-02)
Present for' the app 1 i cant is Mr. David Ha i nes and
Attorney Arthur Reade.
Mr. Haines says they have a plan of the prop~rty next
door which shews a wetlarid up along the road and the driveway
but notes thel-e
obsel-ved at the
a n~ l:Jropos i ng a
.f~(d
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is a difference between it and what they
site. ,~S c3 ~-€:'sult of the last meeting the):
buildIng envelope using a 25' setback fl-om
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Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 2
the edge of the punitive wetland. They have also ,(jjscussed
the possibility of requesting waivers. Notes a small area of
the septic system design does not meet the setback
requirements; it meets requirements from the bordering
vegetated wetl~nds. Q~tt dOE:?s infringe on the 100' buffer zone
, ',' -', ":'" ~ ': ':1
to the punitive wetland. The primary trench encroaches into
that area up to a cistance of 85' from the edge and the
reserve area as designed would be 72'. Notes it is designed
for a five bedroom system.
Mr. Perry asks about a leach pit.
Mr. Haines says, according to Mr. Hart, you have to have'
6~ below the bottdm9~ the p~t; right ~Q~ we h~v~ 7' fro~'the'
lam1 su.~face to the w~ter table'$c we are gOing to have 'to
mound up the trenches slightly. They have shown an envelope
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with a 50' setback from the bordering wetland, 35~ setback
offth~road, and a 25' setback off the isolated wet area.
As~,s ,h'pwto proceed ft-om here. If the commission considers
theisglated wet area to be awetland~ they have to go to the
Board~&f Heilth for a variance from the 100' setback. At the
las~(Jl~eting it was indicated the commission would support
our request for a variance.
Mr. Reade says even if it is a wetland it doesn't have
any very important feature in terms of protecting the Act and
By-law. Obviously they don't want to be in the position
where they have given up their right to contest the status of
that depression as a wetl,and until they know how they are
going to come out with rjgard to their request from the Board
of H~alth. In other words, if the Board of Health were
intranslgent about that, he thinks they would want to come
back het-e and press further on that issue to try to persuade
you ~h~t it's not a wetland.
Mr. Willet says then you want to keep the hearing open
until you get it straightened out with the Board of Health.
Mr. Reade says that's exactly his suggestion.
Mr. Wasierski asks what is the status of that road.
Mr. Reade says it is a county layout not taken as a
public way; it is probably a proprietor's road which means
that presumably the owners of Trots Hill would own to the
midline and the proprietors would have owned the other half
and, when they made the set-offs that created that lot, that
would have passed with it to the midline.
Mr. Wasierski says he wonders if that would affect the
setback; why couldn't they put the septic in the road.
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Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 3
Commissioners discuss the possibility and agree it would
be up to the Board of H~~l'th.
Mr. Reade says they have not yet filed with the Board of
Health but will do so soon. Suggests w~ continue the hearing
on a meeting to meetihg basis and says h~ b~lievesthey will
be able to put together a request to the Board df Health for
our review by the next meeting and asking for a letter
supporting their request.
MOTION: To continue for additional informatio~ lS
made and seconded.
5. 'Arn~ld - 128 Wau!",inet Road
S~48-680' - (1~-9)
Present for the a.pplicant is Mr. David Haines, Jeff
Blackwell and Mrs. Gale Arnold.
Mrs. Arnold notes two letters have been sent from
neighbors in favor of the project: from Curley and Arnold.
Says she doesnft think the Curley and Winston houses should
determine the height as the Curley house was part of a 50'
right of way to the ocean and was not there until around
1975; the other house was a Coast Guard house. Notes that
Dr. Dunwiddie in minutes of February 22, 1990, dealing with
,the Gillies house, stated that dune height is not a constant.
Since she has had a washover it seems relevant that sand be
allowed to go under the house. A statement by David Haines
with regard to the Gillies application: the existing building
currently blocks the pat~ of migration of the dune.
Certainly you could say that about my house. Concludes by
reading (instead of summarizing> the letter in favor of the
project sent by Janet Arnold. Feels it is a fragile area and
other people have been required to raise their houses and she
thinks that two feet will allow it to fill up 6" so she would
then have 1.5' and that is what she would really like.
Mr. Willet asks what was the feeling of the commission
when they visited the site.
Ms. McColl says she did not notice any sand built up
around the house and Mr. Wasierski agreed. Did not feel the
dune was migrating.
Mr. Haines says but you did see sand on the grass.
Ms. McColl says yes, a dusting because the wind was
blowing that day.
Commissioners discuss how much to raise the house.
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Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 4
Mr. Perry says he spoke with the BuildinQ Q~partment and
if an wolmanized carr'v stick is used the minimum is 8" above
grad~J with the sa~, floor jpists it's 14" - J8". Feels
where they are goi.119 to replace the floor joists, a 12"
raising of the ho,,",se to the top of the first floor would
allow the wind to blow under there and keep it dry.
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Mr. Haines says though there is just a dusting of 5~nd,
if you dig down in the soil it's all mixed with sand, th~,~
has been an accumulation of sand which migrates across there.
If you raise the house and have that depression, it wIll fill
up with sand to the level of the adjacent ground. That's why
he's sayir'9 6" beca!-"se if you l~ft the houseup~, i4:'~ in c3
little bit of' a' h.ole:ano ,that'h'ole wil'l fill up a:1d 'level.out
and then the sand would migrate str'aight across :l;here.
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Mr. Willet says the commission seems to be leaning
towards the 18". Asks to close the hearing.
Mr. Perry says he will poll the commissioners and also
verify the inform-ation he re<;:eived from the Building
Department.
MOTION: To close the hearing and draft an order of
conditions is made and seconded.
Mrs. Arnold notes they had. requested 18" above the high
point of the house.
Mr. Blackwell says lS" above the 9.35 figure which is the
center of the liyingroom.
Mr. Kelliher says he made that suggestion.
Mr. l.Jasierski notes the height of 18" does not preclude
the fact that it could be excavated to make up the
difference.
UNANIMOUS
6. Ted Godfrey - 325 Polpis Ro.d - SE48-674 - (25-40)
Present for the applicant is Attorney Arthur Reade; also
present are Mr. and Mrs. Godfrey.
Mr. Willet says this is a notice for a pond but we have
other issues to clear up before we get to that so we will
work on the Certificate of Compliance at the same time.
After the dlScussion and vote on the Certificate, Mr.
Willet asks for discussion on the pond. Notes we had several
different dimensions.
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Meet~ng Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 5
Mr. Perry notes the Certificate is going to b,e a partial
certificate as the septic system hasn't been ins~aJled yet.
They held out installing the septic system until they found
out what's going to happen to the pond because they are going
to use that as a means of access.
Mr. Reade asks if the commission wants a flagging of the
wetland boundary.
Mr. Willet says yes as ~his is completely inadequate.
Mr. Godfrey says so you want to see what the wetland
deline~tion is b~fore you decide o~ the' actual placement of
'the pond. '
MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
7. Egan - 91 W Chester St - NOli - (41-93)
Present for the applicant is Dean Lawrence and David
Haines.
Mr. Lawrence says they have made some modifications in
the two wetlands the commission was concerned about.
Mr. Haines says Mr. Lawrence met with Dr. Dunwiddie to go
over some of his concerns and their plan has been modified
greatly to leave some of the existing wetland and incorporate
it into the design, using some indigenous vegetation to
improve wildlife habitat and try to pick up on the value of
the area in general.
Mr. Lawrence says they propose to take the existing
flagged wetland and to retain SOX of that wetland in an
undisturbed state instead of making the whole area cranberry
bog and totally altering the wetland. So now they have two
types of wetlands. Reintroduced into the 100' buffer will be
indigenous plant material and material that would be
particularly attractive for habitat and food for wildlife.
In the other area they dida similar thing: they had
proposed dredging out the center for a duck pond and then
revegetate the area around it. Now have shifted the pond to
the other side where the slope is not as steep and retained
the wetland and all the plant material between Pilgrim Road
and the wet area. In the interface where they are regrading
they propose to do some selective clearing of the honeYSUCkle
and reintroduce some things like winterberry, tupelo trees,
sweet fetn, rosa rugosa, ink berry and button bush.
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Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 6
,Mr. Perry notes there are no undisturbed buffers around
the w-etlands, prOposed.
Mr. Lawrence s~ys what they did was move the road to the
eas't 2":'-30' and then i nt,-oduced a berm between the road and
the wetland which would be revegetated. That's what I'm
calling a buffer is that introduced berm.
Mr. Perry as~sabout the side slopes.
Mr. Lawrence says in ~ddition to the cranberry they are
sugga-sUng Winter Creeper- a$ a vine, to ~tabiliz.e the slope.
Alsq they c..re . proposing, a ,preconstruction .siltatio'f.'l fen::e
bar,-'ier in addit'lOr. to a post-tonstruction siltation fence at
the base of the slope while they are establishing the grades
s() that nothing will be disturbed in the wetland. That holds
true for both wetlands.
Mr. Perry asks if run-off from the road will be angled
away from the bog.
Mr. Lawrence sAys he crowned the road so all the water
coming off the hill is collecting on the bther side of the
road and leaching so just the water from the center would go
to the bog.)
Mr. Willet asks if that pretty much answers the concerns
we had last time.
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Mr. Don Liptack from the Soil Conservation asks where the
spoilswi}l be going when they dig out the hillside.
Mr. Lawrence says the soils probably are about the same
as where they dug the test pits. There is probably about a
foot and a half of sandy loam under which is a 6" - 12" layer
of a harder clay material and then sandy gravel under that.
The hard pan would be used as the base for that road for that
path over which would be a 2" layer of stonE dust and the
excess cut material would betaken outside of the 100' area.
Mr. Liptack also asks about a perimeter ditch so that
when the bog is flooded the water is contained. Offers his
assistance in setting up the hydrology for the bog. Says a
perimeter dike would be very important asit is considered an
organic cranberry bog and one of the traditional cultural
practices is flooding.
Mr. Perry suggests a cross section of the bog showing the
finish contOurs so we can see what the ditch will look like.
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Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 7
Disc~ssion on flood1ng the bog, should they decide that
is a practice they want to do, and what they would need to
intr'oduce.
Mr. Willet suggests they provide us with some cross
sect ions..
Mr. Haines asks if they are heading in the right
direction with the commission.
Mr. Willet says he thinks so.
Mr. Perry says he would like to see the pond pushed out a
little more and a littl17'more of. the natLr'31 wetland left. '
Mr. Lawrence says they are actually increasing the
wetland area by moving the bog.
MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
8.
Beinecke
Crooked Lane
SE4S.....675
(41-203)
9.
Anderson - Crooked Lane
SE48-676
(41-203.1)
10.
Beinecke
Crooked Lane
SE48-677
(41-203.2)
Present for the applfcant is Mr. Lester Smith and Mr.
Arthur Reade.
Mr. Reade says although it has not become final yet as
the decisions haven't been filed, they obtained the variances
waiving the front yard setback on each of the three lots down
f\-om 30 I to 15 I .
Mr. Smith says they have been discussing the sewer
connection with the sta~e and as of today they say it is
imminent, all of the technical issues have been resolved.
There are just a few minor procedural aspects they are
wo\-king out.
Mr. Reade reviews the history of ~he project and the
problems with DEP relating to the sewer extension permit.
Concludes they were denied an extension on their pr"evious
order and were requested to attempt to move the structures
away from the wetland to the extent possible to at least get
closer to the present regs that had been adopted since the
old order of conditions had been issued. The point is the
owners have been held up over a long period of time and have
come into the situation in good faith with the understanding
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Me.~~ngMinutes for December 19, 1991
Page 8
they were buyingw,i.th orders of conditions in place,
expecting to build the project within three years, and then
found they couldn't due to the problem of getting the state
permits.
Mr. Perry suggests a detail design on the two houses on
the outside to more reflect what's there; perhaps a
discussion on ridge heights or limiting the number of
bedrooms or the size of the house as we would be issuing
waivers on all three lots.
Mr. Reade says we are trying to keep the building
~nvelopes as small as possible.
Mr. Perry says he doesn!t s..::e, how the middle lot with 'a
foUl- bedroom house aan do any~hing but have an impact on the
wetland as there is only a 16' setback.
Mr,. Wilson says he is troubled with that as well.
Mr. Smith says these will all be at grade but they
unfortunately don't have much room to work with. Notes they
are taking the roof run-off into downspouts. Also are
talking about a gravel driveway to keep it impervious.
Mr. Reade says as the houses will be on the sewer system
the number of bedrooms is not really pertinent.
Mr. Perry disagrees, ,says the number of bedrooms implies
a certain size structure~
Mr. Wilson says since waivers are required he would
rather see no dwelling there at all.,
Mr. Reade says that's not a possibility for us.
not acceptable.
That's
Mr. Wilson says if it's not, acceptable does it absolutely
have to be a four bedroom house. Could it not be a 'Sconset
style cottage tucked closer to the norther-n edge of the lot.
Something that would get as far away from wetland as
possible. It's 16 1/2 feet.
Mr. Smith says ZBA has basically given the maximum.
Mr. Perry says not necessarily. They asked why 15 feet
was chosen and I explained usually the commission splits the
difference. They were going on that comment but had said if
the commission requires 10 they might change their view.
Mr. Reade says the vote was four to one and they had an
adverse recommendation from the Planning Board, one of whose
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Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 9
member~,suggested i~ should be the wetland setback th4t
should be bent, not the zoning setback.
Ms. McColl says the wetland setback is being bent.
Mr. Smith says if the-concern is the buffer we could put
in a more dense shrub buffer of some sort to achieve a
greater barrier from the dwelling and the wetland.
Mr. Wilson asks what the side setback is.
Mr. Reade says 10 feet.
,Mr. Wilso'nsays th~s is a ,ldrye, wide',house facing the
'3treet. In rccognitio,,'of wetl~nd"scel1ic vieiAJ th".ls
essentially eliminates a very beputiful view driving down
Crooked Lane. I'm not in favor of the middle dwelling at all
but if it was considerably smaller and was pushed as much to
the north as possible...
Mr. Smith says it currently is 21' off the lot line to
the north.
Ms. McColl asks if they would consider a-, smaller house in
the middle lot.
Mr. Smith says the 24,1 dimension we're talking abqut is a
pretty narrow house to begin with.
Mr. Wilson says to m~~e myself clear, I am talking about
the width -- 24x 24 -~ many people live in houses that
large. Suggests it could be made L shape--as much of
visibility to the wetland as possible would be very nice.
Mr. Reade says we can certainly play with a redesign.
Mr. Wilson says there is no reason why we need to grant
the center one at all, if the board chose.
Mr. Reade says obviously you know what the result of that
would be.
Mr. Wilson says whatever result ends up here it's going
to be here for a long time, whether it's a law suit or
whether it's a house, and, if our imagination is used,
probably more people will be satisfied in the long run.
Mr. Reade says he agrees and he thinks we should
certainly try to come up with something else over the next
few weeks. We're not operating under the gun right now
because our variance won't be final until all the appeal
periods, which will be late January; so hopefully by the next
Meeting, Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 10
meeting, which is three, weeks away, we can come up with some
ideas to try to work with you as far as the middle lot is
concerned.
Mr. Wilson says and you have to examine the possibility
o.f what the minimum four bedroom house 'sq~'..ire footage would
be.
Ms. McColl says three bedroom.
Commissioner says or even small~r.
Mr. Willet says take a look at how you can s~ale it down.
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Ms: Cheryl Cr:'eighton of, th'e LCind Cclinci 1 says she hali
subn'li tteo""ali ttar at the previous meeting regarding some of
ttfe is';!il1SfO' surrounding this. This is an extraordinary case
wM~re all three lots exceed the buffer. The one in the
middle in particular is also exceeding the project activity
25' bu~fer, let alone the 50' structural setback, and this is
,.i'n e><'benSi,ve wetland area feeding into Hummock Pond. Is glad
to know they are going to look at reducing the house size;
believes that was really emphasized at the last meeting and
awkedfor by the commissioners as well as in our letter and
ithajn'toccurredin this plan. Thinks that needs to be
looked at seriously at all of the sites, in particular the
mid'dle,;lot, though she doesn't see how a dwelling can be
allowed on that middle lot given the information from Mass.
Audl.Jbon and even the State's non-point source pollution
dG.culllentsregardi ng the i;mportance of buffer zones, in
particular-against a borde,~ing vegetated wetland. They are
one o~the most important as wildlife habitat, wetland scenic
vi,ews~ water pollution, erosion control, etc., and it seems
the applicants really need to give some more consideration to
reducir'l<.;) this project proposal for the extensive waivers that
are necessary.
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MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
11 . Wetheri 11
45 Hulbert Ave
SE48,....683
(29-16)
12. Constable
43 Hu I bel- t Ave
SE48-684
(29-17)
Mr. Willet says we are going to take Wetherill and
Constable because they are back to back.
Present for the applicant are Mr. John Shugrue, Mr.
Arthur Reade; also present are Mr. Wetherill and Mr. Charlie
Sali'Jyer.
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Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 11
Mr.. Perry says the commissioners inspected the area On
Monday and there wasn't any real consensus other than the
fact that the bulkheads need to be replaced--- or something.
Mr. Willet says to Mr. Shugrue, you're just suggesting
pure ,. rep} acement for what was there.
Mr. Shugrue says yes.
Mr. Willet says there is some discussion among the
commissioners on whether to allow replacement bulkheads in
this a~ea or possibly go with building dunes.
.Mr. Kell iher says .a northeast 'storm i-s g~ing to wash out
the dunes as fast as it washed out the bulkheads.
Mr. Wilson asks Mr. Perry if he got in touch with CZM.
Mr. Perry says he wrote a letter last week requesting
technical assistance and is trying to get a response as to
when they will be coming down, hopefully before the January
9th meeting. In the letter he explained what the commission
wanted to do and one of their jobs is to provide assistance.
Mr~ Reade says Mr. Wetherill is deeply concerned to the
point of coming here for the meeting. The Constables are
related to the Wetherill's and he speaks for both families
tonight. He feels it is extremely important for the
protection of the existirig houses on his pl-operty as well as
other houses that are existing in the area that the bulkhead
be restored in the location and new condition where it was
before the storm.
Mr. Willet says he personally has no problem with
replacing those existing bulkheads. There are several
members, Dr. Dunwiddie for one, Mr. Wilson perhaps, who are
thinking about the dune approach.
Mr. Wilson says he wanted CZM's advice on the subject.
Mr. Willet suggests it would be best to put these on hold
if it is agreeable to the applicants until we get some input
f,-om CZM.
Mr. Wetherill says the Wetherill house was built in 1939
and the bulkhead shortly thereafter. The same bulkhead stood
in that spot for all those years without even significant
repair so it did pretty well. We feel that the risk to the
house, whether you said we have to have a dune or some other
system or no system, is extreme-- that we might lose the
ent i roe house. We a I so th i nk there j s a risk i Ii de I ay as we
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Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 12
could have another one of those northeaster's at some point
so we don't want to make it a very protracted thingw
Mr. Willet says he thinks by the time we meet next time
we can come to a consensus.
Mr. Wetherill says he wants to mention, from what he
understands of the st~te regulations, the house and t~e old
bulkh~ad should be grandfathered. Notes the two new houses
near them which were built on pilings-- those sand dunes were
very much in place this past summer and are very much gone
now--absolutely flat. We respectfully request that you give
us favorable consideration. Concludes by submitting. letter
from M(. George Constable.
Mr. Kelliher says the long range forecast for this winter
is more frequent northeast storms. He hopes we don't have
another storm before the next meeting.
Mr. Wilson says he thinks we should talk to C2M first.
Mr. Willet agrees; says we have to come to a consensus
first on the whole bulkhead thing. Once we do that, as we
know the plans are in place, it will go rather quickly. I
would have hoped that by this time we would have heard from
e2M; we will makesul7',e by next meeting lrJe do.
Mr. Reade asks if we expect C2M to come down here.
.Mr. Perry says yes, that is what he has requested. He
can't expect them to provide assistance from Boston. Says he
will notify Mr. Reade of the date.
Mr. Wilson says his point in bringing it up was to hear
their opinion of the best possible bulkhead, if it is to be a
bulkhead, not to question Mr. Shugrue's skills at all, just
thinks we need to know how the state stands on it.
Mr. Wetherill says he understands what would be very
problematical would be interspersed bulkheads and dunes.
Mr~ .Sawyer says his family has had property on Hulbert
Avenue for as long as Mr. Wetherill's family has. He sees
Mr. Wetherill's issue as being very significant for the
entire street and he s4Pportseverything he says. Ever since
the west jetty was put in 100 years ago it has really changed
the equation down there. Thinks the whole system of
bulkheads and groins that is there now, all the way to Brant
Point, has been very successful in stabilizing that shore and
protecting the land and the houses. He doesn't see any
negative side to it; therefore, he thinks to take some other
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Me~ti~g Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 13
radical approach would be an extraord,tnary thing to do. To
toss away a concept that is well~~Gven by time.
M!fl'. Willet says in addition to Wetherill and Constable we
also have Sager, Sawyer, Cross and Davis.
Mr. Perry says Davis is a different situation.
Mr. Willet says the others can all be continued as well.
Mr. Perry says we need to open Sager, Sawyer ~nd Cross.
MOTIO!'l:. To continuE' for additional informatibn is
"iade 'and, sel.:ond .
UNANIMOUS
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13.
Sager - 33 Hulbert Ave - (29-21)
Mrs. Hussey. abstains from discussion and the vote.
Present for the applicant is Mr. Glen Wills.
Mr. Wills says if we do have CZM come down here 'and
whatever direction they go, do you think we could close and
issue the same night in order to speed up the process.
Mr. Willet says-he thinks we can work it out and work
towards that end. Thinks we can get it squared away by the
next meeting. 's
Mr. Forns asks if the commission could declare an
emergency that allows people to take the activity and move
ahead with the replacement order because the structure will
be threatened.
Mr. Willet says he is reluctant to get into that at the
moment.
Mr. Forns continues if you deal with the structure, which
would be the surface bulkhead, would you also be dealing with
the perpen8icular groins at the same time.
Mr. Willet says he would assume so.
Mr. Forns suggests the commissioners might want to get in
touch with the other towns who have dealt with the same
problem. They have exercised emergencies in Chatham and
Falmouth; where they knew philosophically they were going to
go in a certain direction, they allowed the process to be
expedited quickly.
Meetinq Minutes'for December 19, 1991
Page 14
Mr. Willet say~he thinks we will try and expedite i~,
once we determine what that course is going to be.
Mr. Wills says he would hope he could get a go-ahead on
the ninth.
MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
Yes - 4
No - 1 (Kelliher)
Mr. Kelliher objects to the del.aying the vote.
Mr.W~II~~ says he not.s the objectfon but feRls we ~eed
additional information from CZM.
Mr. Reade notes we don't have file numbers yet.
Mr. Kelliher says you don't need a file number in
Chatham.
* 14. Sawyer - 37 Hulbert Ave - (29-20)
MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
Yes - 4
No ..., 1 <Kelliher)
{
Mr. Kelliher objects to the delaying the vote.
Mr. Willet says he notes the objection but feels we need
additional information from CZM.
Mr. Reade notes we don't have file numbers yet.
Mr. Kelliher says you don't need a file number in
Chatham.
* 15. Cross - 39 & 41 Hulbert Ave - (29-18 & 19)
MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
Yes - 4
No - 1 (Ke 11 i her)
Mr. Kelliher objects to the delaying the vote.
Mr. Willet says he notes the objection but feels we need
additional information from CZM.
}:~,
Meeting;Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 15
Mr. Reade notes ,we don't have file numbers yet.
Mr. Kelliher says you don't need a file number in
Chatham.
*
16.
Davis
51 Hulbert Ave - S~48-682 - (29-13)
Present for the applicant is Mr. Jeff Blackwell and Mr.
Michael O'Mara.
Mr. Blackwell says the Davis' bought the property the end
of A~gust and,the storm did structural dama~e shortly after.
Some, of the' oVEirwashfr'om aver the bu I khead ac tua 11 y toc,k
some 'of the SUppul-t pIers Qut cind Mr. 'Davis has decided that
instead of trying to juryrig the house they propose to
demolish the building and rebuild it in basically the same
place and almost the same configuration. Notes the bulkhead
isin pretty g60d shape. Presents an architect's drawing of
what is there now, what is prop6sed to be added and what is
proposed to be eliminated from the existing structure. The
only thing that would be considered new within the 50'
setback from the bulkhead is the chimney.
Mr. Kelliher asks about groundcover.
Mr. Blackwell says the size of the lot is over 10,000 sq.
ft. and they are allowed 50% groundcover. This is well under
the allowed.
Mr. Wilson asks what sort o~ foundation it will have and
if it will be higher than wh~t it is now.
Mr. Blackwell says pilings and the finish first floor
elevation is 10'; it.s only required to be 8'. Right no~""
it's above 11'.
Mr. Perry as~s if they are going to use break-away walls.
Mr. Blackwell says yes but the fine points haven't been
worked out as yet.
Mr. Wasierski asks if ridge height is going to be the
same.
Mr. O'Mara says it's within 6" of what's there now; about
5 1/2 "higher. The fil-st floor ceiling is 7'.
Mr. Perry notes they are dropping the first floor down a
foot and then qoing up 5" highel- from the existing.
.
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 16
M~~, Perry continues we will need a plan showing either
the top of the pilings or the top of the floor. Adds it can
be submitted after the order but we need a letter certifying
the elevation is going to be a certain number so it can be in
the order.
Mr. Blackwell says we'll give you elevation 10 as the
first floor elevation. And we'll give you an engineered'copy
of the piling plan.
Mr. Perry says then we can close and issue the next
meeting.
MOTION,: 'to cOntinue the 'hearing 'for. additional
info~mation is'made and .econdeu.
UNANIMOUS
*
17.
Wiley - 39 Baxter Road
SE48-685 - (49-10 & 49.2.3-4)
Mr. Perry says he first inspected this in October and has
been waiting for a file number.
Mr. Willet reads the inspection report.
Mr. Wiley presents the plans and the commissioners
review.
Mr. Perry notes there are a number of sitting areas.
't
Mr. Willet asks Mr.. Wiley if he has any objection to
cutting it down to one sitting area and scaling it down a
little.
Mr. Wiley says he can scale it down. Would like to keep
the largest sitting area. Adds his client likes the zigzag
effect which makes it a little more user friendly. Adds Mr.
Perry has suggested bringing it down a natural swale and he
will propose it to the client. Thinks it will limit the
views from down the beach.
Mr. Wilson suggests if the runners were a little longer
and the steps. little wider you might be able to hug the
ground a little closer.
Ml'-. Wiley says that is a good point.
keep them comFortable in the 7 to 8 l-ise.
keep it down as much as possible.
He would like to
He would want to
Mr. Willet suggests he try repo~itioning it and cutting
it down to one sitting area.
...J
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 17
MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
*
18.
Old North Wharf
(42.3.1-225) - SE48-686- utility lines
*
19.
Old North Wharf
(42.3.1-225)
SE48-6a7 - cottages
Present for the applicant is Attorney Melissa Philbrick;
also present is Mr. Alfred Sanford.
Mr. Perry says there are two notices and, he d~esn't see
any raason why we cap'~ take them toge~her~Ohe is to
rep 1 ace the four co t tage-'3 ar-;d thewa I kwaysto them and' the
other is to do the catwalk from the one cottage out to the
pierhead that remains where the pier expansion has been
proposed.
Mr. Sanford says he thinks the application is pretty
straightforward. They are applying to rebuild the cottages
and walkway that existed on the 30th of October. They are
trying to rebuild the houses the same way as they were
before. Changes show a simplified foundation structure--
there are fewer pilings in the water then there used to be.
The overall size and position of the piling fields are the
same. The deck elevations are slightly higher per the
building code.
Mr. Willet says at this point you are just looking for
our feelings in this regard; obviously there is a fair amount
of detail that isn't here.
Mr. Sanford says he doesn't know what kind of detail you
might want. The piling plans are there for all the cottages
with the carrying beams. Also attached is the existing
permits for this; these are all licensed structures.
Mr. Perry says one comment was where the buildings are
entirely gone whether it is covered by the existing license
that was issued in 1930 or '32. Mrs. Philbrick has talked
with Mr. Jeff Martin and they haven't seen anything specific
that it is. They have requested a number of waivers required
to replace these buildings. The commission needs to decide
if they want to issue the waivers, one reason is if it is
important enough to the scenic view of the area. That seems
to be a large part of the discussion in the old file. The
cottages as they exist were very important to people coming
to Nantucket. Now they arB going to be built up to modern
standacds.
Ms. McColl asks if they will look basically the same.
..:~"'"
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 18
Mr. Sanford says we will make them as close as we can.
The only changes will be what the building code forces us to
do such as elevations, ceiling hei~hts and stairways. They
will try to get variances. ~
Mr. Perry asks if the sewer line remains full or is it
gravity down to the main pier.
Mr. Sanford says the sewer line to the houses is a
gt-avi ty line.
Mr. Perry'asks if it will be double cased.
Mr,,' Sanford sa'ys they have never' had any~ trO:.Jble wi th it
before.'!iHe's not aware of any regulations requiring it.. It
is only u~ed,in the summer; because of freezing problems it
has to be turned off.
Ms. McColl says she doesn't know of any regulations but
notes this is' a unique case.
Mr. Perry says the last notice discussed whether or not
the site was considered on a rocky, tidal shore; it would
make a difference in the waivers. Adds he thinks it is.
Mr. Sanford says he thinks the issue is in the definition
whether the rocky shore is naturally made and notes this is
the ruins of the old wharf.
{
Mr. Wilson asks if we want information on the sewer
casing.
Mr. Kelliher asks if the sewer line will have to be
replaced.
Mr. Sanford says yes.
Mr. Kelliher says in that case a double casing will have
to be brought up at that time.
Ms. McColl says he will have to talk to Mr. Willett about
sewer permits if the sewer line has to be replaceQ so that
will be taken care of at that time.
MOTION: To close beth the hearings and draft an
order is made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
* 20.
GreenhIll - 16 Hoicks Hollow Rd - (23-1)
,
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 19
Present for the applicant is Attorney Melissa Philbrick
who presents the architect's plans. Says they would like to
move the existing house which is in close proximity to the
top of the bank and move it outside of 100' from the top of
the bank. Then construct a new residence, all points of
which would be more than SO' from the top cf the bank. The
new plan is based on work that was done to locate the top of
the bank after the October 30 storm so that you had some up-
to-date shore line information. As a result they have pulled
the envelope back slightly. They would like it approved
based on the building envelope beca~se the plans areln a
very early stage and will no doubt go through a number of
revisions. Th~y wanted you to ,see'what thegener~l scheme
wa5, didn't 'W8~t you io be su~p~is~d by'it.
Mr. Willet says so' essentially you're taking one building
out of our jurisdiction and adding another 50' back. Ms.
Philbrick says we have an outstanding order to add on to this
house. Afte~ the last storm~hey decided they did not want
to devote time and energy to that project and we would not
use that permit but move the house and build a new house.
Mr. Perry notes the house is going out to the point of
the property land the commission may want to consider ridge
heights in case the building doesn't end up as originally
drawn.
Attorney Philbrick ~ays what they have requested on the
notice is that the ridge height would not exceed 2S'. Adds
because it is this type 61" house they need to go to 2S' on
the ridge.
Ml-. Perry says he wQuldexpect substantial changes
required by the HDC. Notes at this point there is only one
section that's tall with a lot of wings but he wouldn't want
to see the wings start climbing.
Mr. Wilson suggests limiting 2S' to a certain percentage
of the footprint.
Mr. Willet says he thinks we should monitor to a certain
degree.
Attorney Philbrick says she is trying to avoid the back
and forth they have in the past ended up doing between the
HDC and here. Suggests she will talk to the architect to get
his input.
Mr. Wilson says this is basically a one story house with
a story and a half in the center, so if they continue in this
line it should be fine.
I
Meeting Minutes for December 19,1991
Page 20
Mr. Perry shows the Commission the calculations for the
annual erosion rate for the area in order for thec,proiect to
meet the local regulations.
MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
B. REGULAR MEETING
1. REQUEST FOR DETERMINATION
a. Kee'nan -, 11 . Full 1:019' i1i 11. R.d
(27-24),
Mr. Perry says we continued for a vote today for a
positive determination to file a notice.
MOTION: To issue a positive determination is made
and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
*
b. Varallo - 16 Gcilen Ave. (29-118)
Mr. Willet abstains from the discussion and the vote.
Mr. Perry says this is for a property at Brant Point. If
it is determined it is more than fifty percent destroyed they
have to bring it up to c&de. This also abuts the property on
which a filing was done lClst yeClr for a. boathouse. They
aren't proposing any expansion 01- fill lines; he feels it is
in the buffer zone but will not alter as the fill doesn't go
past the hedge which separates the house from the wetland on
the other side.
Mr. Wasierski suggests we also include a siltation fence
as well is required.
MOTION~ To issue a negative determination as being
in the buffer zone but will not alter, with the
condition that none of the dirt goes past the lawn
and that a siltation fence be added.
UNANIMOUS
*
c. Emack - 57 Pocorr~ Rd - (15-16)
)
Present for the applicant is Mr. Robert Emack and
Attorney Arthur Reade.
Mr. Perry says this lS for stairs to the beach.
~ A'i;~',t_':,*,~j':liti~'1!'
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 21
Mr. Willet says generally we require a notice for stairs.
Mr. Perry says he had asked at the field inspection how
it could be in the resource area and not alter.
Mr. Emack says the idea behind filing the request was in
the recent storm th~ir existing stairs were damaged enough so
that you can't use them any more. Rather then replace them
in ~he same location the Shapiro's want to replace them
closer between the two dW21lings.
M~. Willet says he would like to see a notice.
Mr. ,Ree.c,'e says "they have no pl-oblem with fili'ng a 'no_tic'?
Mr. Perry says his only comment was that when they come
in with a notice they add a boardwalk because it is well
vegetated with thorny vegetation and it isn't a very
comfortable walk. Notes the existing stairs are used by a
number of the abutters and he thinks that use will no longer
be allowed.
Mr. Wasierski asks why couldn't this be included in the
notice for the house.
Mr. Perry says they could have but this is now a separate
pro j ec t .
MOTION: To issu~ a positive determination as a
notice is required is made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
*
d.
Emack
127 Eel Point Rd - (33~14)
Mr. Perry says theuriginal notice allowed the house to
be put on pilings. Now they want to enclose a little section
of the power structure.
Mr. Willet asks what is his recommendation.
Mr. Perry says it's actually a toss-up. They are planning
to keep it elevated like the existing house but it's
certainly within the buffer zone of the dune.
Mr. Wasierski notes it's entirely within the footprint of
the housp. Asks if the dune is stable.
Mr. Perry says it hasn't gotten any worse in the last ten
years; underneath the house seems to be pretty secured out.
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
Page 22
MOTION: To issue a negative determination as being.
in the buffer zone but will not alter is made and
seconded.
UNANIMOUS,':,
*
e.
Perkins - 31 Almanac Pond Rd. - (46-2)
f'
Present for the applicant is Attorney Arthur Reade and
Mr. Jeff Blackwell.
Mr. Reade say.,; they are conderned with a proposed
addition. and the existin~drive~aYMhich is on regist~red
'land of 'a71 a'tlutte~ for which' this pr'()pe~:-ty has no easement.
It would: have to tie reconstru~t~d within th~ buffe~ zone.
Mr. Perry saY5 what isn't shown an the plan is the
elevation change from the pond, it climbs up about 15 feet.
Notes the addition will be behind the existing house. The
suggestion he made to Mr. Blackwell in the field was that
when they build the new house they move the transformer out
of ,the wetland and put it beside th~ d~iveway.
Mr. Reade says that makes good sense.
Mr. Perry says he does not feel ~ not~ce is necessa~y.
MOTION: To issue a negative determination is made
and seconded.
'.;,.
UNANIMOUS
2. ORDER OF CONDITIONS (full text of Orders in the files)
a. Tristram's Homeowners - Long Pond -SE48-443 - (30-90)
Mr. Perry says he spoke with various applicants and
agents after they got thei r draft order. He had two pr'ob lems
with the draft. #18 talks about the number of windows they
are going to cut through the cattails and they had shown 6,
three had existing piers and there were three on Long Pond
Drive didn't~ After talking with them they agreed to limit
it to the three existing access points and piers which are
#1, 2 & 3 on the plan. Also, they wanted to start the work
on September 1 instead of October 1 and he would rather see
October 1 because it is a less busy time for the pond.
Commissioners agree to go with October 1.
MOTION: To issue the order with suggested changes IS
made and seconded.
Meeting Minutes for December. 19, 1991
Page 23
UNANIMOUS
ADDITIONAL SPECIAL CONDITIONS
Tristram's Long Pond Homeowners Association
Arlene Paquette, Pre~idEnt
DEP FILE NUMBER SE48 - 597
ASSESSOR'S MAP 59 and 60
Long Pond at l'1assasoitBridge Area
UNDER THE MASSACHUSETTS WETLANDS PROTECTION ACT
( MGL CHAPTER 131, SECTION 40 )
AND THE WETLANDS BYLAW OF THE TOWN OF NANTUCKET
( CHAP,TER '1,36 )
###
b. McMaster - 26 Western Avenue - SE48-679 - (87-77)
Present for the applicant is Mr. David McMaster and Mr.
Robert Emack.
Mr. Perry says \"Ie have a mu~tiple choice draft order of
conditions for McMaster.
Mr. Willet says how many of the commissioners are for an
approval of., the pro,jec t.
For :KeU iher ,Wi lson, Hussey
Against: Wasierski, tMcColl
Mr. Emack comments on Condition #17 to add the word
'approximately' for 17 feet. As a surveyor they l~ke to work
with somewhat of a safety net, a couple of inches anyway.
Mr. Willet suggests a couple inches plus or minus.
Mr. Emack comments on #14. The plan had indicated 34'
and the order says 35'.
Attorney Reade says he represents the abutters and he is
not going to repeat comments made at the previous meetings
but says this order will put the existing septic system into
use and, for the same reasons you denied Leet, his clients
feel this also should be denied.
MOTION: To issue the orde~ of conditions approving
the project with changes as requested is made and
seconded.
Yes: Kelliher, Hu~sey, Wilson
NO: Wasierski, McColl
r
Mee~ing Minutes f~~ December 19, 1991
Page 24
ADDITIONAL SPEOIAU,QOND,ITIQNS
McMaste'r,ReaJ. tv' ;,"Trus~! . Agf"eement
c/o Douglas O"Conne}.l~&,Br...e.Ch"dwick, Trustees
DEP FI.I.:ENUt1BERtSEf:tQ- 679
ASSESSOR" S MAP ...97, .PARCEL 77
2bwe~tern Av.nue
UNDER \ THE MASSACHUse~TS WE~~~; PROTECTION ACT
( MGL CHAPTER 131, SECTION 40 )
AND THE WETLANDS BYLAW OF THE TOWN OF NANTUCKET
( CHAPTER 136 .,)
###
c. Old North Wharf - SE48~681
(4"2.3; 1-225)
Present for th~ applicant is Mr. Alfred Sanford.
Mr. Perry says the only comment he has received is the
end date of #15 of April 1. They would like to extend it to
June 1 on the recommendation of the Town Biologist. Adds he
thinks we should stop before Memorial Day--from a
recreational standpoint May 15 might be a better date.
Commissioners discuss and agree to specify May 20.
MOTION: To issue the order with the noted date
change is made and seconded.
UNAN I MOUS'
ADDITIONAL SPECIAL CONDITIONS
Old North Wharf Trust
DEP FILE NUMBER SE48 - bBl
ASSESSOR'S MAP 42.3.1, PARCEL 225
Old North Wharf
UNDER THE MASSACHUSETTS WETLANDS PROTECTION ACT
( MGL CHAPTER 131, SECTION 40 )
AND THE WETLANDS BYLAW OF THE TOWN OF NANTUCKET
( CHAPTER 136 )
###
3. CERTIFICATE OF COMPLIANCE
a. Godfrey - 325 Polpis Road - SE48-415 - (25-40)
Present for the applicant is Attorney Arthur Reade; also
present ar~ Mr. and Mrs. Godfrey.
Mr. Willet says this is a notice for a pond b~t we have
other issues to clear up before we get to that so we will
work un the Certificate of Compliance at the same time.
.
Meeting Minutes for Dec. 19, 1991 page 25
Mr. Godfrey says he has,a proposal in addition to the
plantings for a deck modification to remove a portion of the
deck beginning at the corner and removing all the sonar tubes
and decking and pti~ting the railing back u~ on the other
side. It takes 8'4" back from the corner on this side and
5' 8" back fOl-m the other corner.
Mr. Reade says that gives a setback of about 35' where it
was about 26' before.
Mr. Godfrey says all the plantings would remain as drawn;
notes he previously provided a list of plants proposed.
'~rs~ Godfrey say~ what we're, offering is the deck .
modificatiQ~ andt~eplanting$ because you had s~id you.
wanted two of the three suggestions that we made.
Mr. Reade says the deck is cut back to the minimum for it
to work effectively for the entrance on that side; have about
3' from the closest point.
Mr. Willet says he thinks the wetland delineation
originally was fairly loose; he's happy with this.
Mr. Kelliher says he's happy with it; Mr. Wilson agrees
as does Ms. McColl.
Mr. Perry says so you're not going to require a
restriction on the rest of the property against using the
{
garage as a dwelling.
Mr. Wi llet says he's will iog 'to let it go. Mr. Kell iher
says they had said at somepo~nt in time one of their
parent's might need to liVe there.
Mrs. Godfrey says we'd have to come before the board at
that point anyway and you could refuse us at that point.
Mr. Reade suggests adding something in the certificate
that expressly calls out the fact that any further alteration
or change in use would require the filing of a new Notice of
Intent just to make sure nothing else would be done without
coming to the commission.
Mr. Willet asks for a vote on the Certificate with the
stipulations that Mr. Reade just mentioned.
MOTION: To issue the Certificate of Compliance is
made and seconded.
YES:
NO:
Kelliher, McColl, Wilson, Hussey
Wasier-ski
Meeting Mitiu~es for December 19, 1991 page 26
Mr. Perry notes the Certificate is going to be a partial
certificate as the septic system hasn't been installed yet.
They held out installing the septic syste4lri UTlttl they f.ound
out what's going to happen to the pond because they are going
to use that as a means of access.
Mr. Reade asks if the commission wants a flagging of the
wetland bouhdary
Mr. Willet says yes as this is completely inadequate.
Mr. Godfrey says SO:'ou want to: see what' the w~tland
'del in.eation i'5 b\=forE\'{ctu dec'ide on the ac.tua'l p1a~ement at'
the pond.
b . Ha 11
44 Tennessee..Ave
SE48-393
(59.4-193)
MOTION: To continue is made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
4. PLANNING BOARD REFERRAL
a. Somerset Farm Subdivision
Mr. Perry says this is Ralph Marble's property. There
isn't any wetlands but he would like to say in the
Commission's response th~t half the property is in the
Endangered Species area .;fnd the Planning Board may want to
consider clusterin~ the subdivision to keep all the
development outside that area. They have the ability to do
that now.
MOTION: To send the Planning Board a letter with
suggested recommendatiCln is made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
b. Duckland - off Gardner Road
Mr. Perry says this is Al Silver's property. They have
made some changes of property lines. The pond is now in one
big lot and they have put in a drainage r~tention basin for
the entire road next to the pond. In the previous letter we
had said lot 6 & 7 were subject. Now only Lot 7is subject
plus the drainage system and the siltation areas.
Commissioners agree.
MOTION: To make a recommendation as agreed is made
and secc:'ded.
I
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
page 27
UNANIMOUS
5. OTHER BUSINESS
a. Anapol - Pennsylvania Ave. - SE48-192 - (60.3.1-17)
Present for the applicant are Attorney Edward Wall and
Mr. Joe Forns; also present is Mr. Anapol.
Mr. Perry says we received plans today from Mr. Forns.
Mr. Forns says we came,before you ~ctually tWQ meetings
ugo and indicated ~e.i,wou.ld 'put togeth~r a plan that was, .
cDnsi3tentwith th~ "initial Ord~~ of Cond1tions, Certificate
of Compliance and generally be consistent with the
regula'tions regarding the resource areas and managing the
site. Essentially it came down to a ~uestion of access
issues. We went through and met with the various agencies in
the town as well as looking at the regulations, and we feel
we are in a position that we are trying to meet both the
spirit as well as the letter of the regulations dealing with
all of the issues: fire and emergency access to the site,
maintenance rights of the approved subdivision by the town
~or the roadways that are of record and the fact the town for
a period of time has not maintained any of those roadways but
allowed the dynamics of the .ystem to just take over, as well
as incorporate the existing structure and the previous
structures and the site sonditions and the basic, overall
structure and function o~ the site and come up with a
management plan that would address that issue.
We used as the basis of this the formal records that
existed and went back and as best as we could used the
historical information for the site. As I indicated to you
when I was here last we would come back with an incremental
development plan that would address these dynamic forces
which would then allow us to redirect the natural processes
and train sand and keep as much sand on the property without
going away. It is my understanding that abutters are
concerned that if there was an access through, that material
would end up tunneling and blowing through, causing a problem
to their properties and that would give them aggravation
which they didn't have. So we've set up our plan. Notes
page 7 describes how they will go about this. They have now
gotten the snow fencing and materials that will be used to
set up the first phase, which will be to try to entrain the
material that will be on the west/southwest side, and set up
a double wall in a z-type pattern to entrain airborne sand
drift, building up that pattern so it would hold material and
prevent any scouring. At the same time the access to the
site would be a switch-back pattet"" r-ather than a straight
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991 page 28
through system and it is quite effective. That first switch-
back patternwFll be an ,access to the site foreme,rgency
work; it wouldn't be a formal Vehicular driveway or. anything
like that. As time progresses and, looking at ttle schedule,
would be in the March/April,timeframe, we would finish some
of the grading with material on th~ site and at the same time
begin .~ vegetative planting schedule. Beach grass would be
planted per the site plan and the layout, while root
structures were still dormant. This will entrain low level,
up to 18", and stabilize. As we move along we'll go back in
to that area. This ~ill be follohed through and the last
phase will be the amount of additional sand fill (approx 200
yards) that will be required. Then they will put in the
acc~s~ road which is abbut 125' and a nominal 8' width. That
would b~ following th~initi~l pathway access and would ha~e
the switchback pattern.
Mr. Willet says that would be the last thing you would
pu tin.
Ms. McColl says you are already planning to open that up
next month. What's to stop it from filling in and destroying
the neighborhood between January and June.
Mr. Fornssays one of the things, it's not going to be a
roadway width; its going to bean access. Secondly, any
materials that are on this sit~, if the transport goes to the
east and pushes away, would be relocatedbackQ~to the site
as the order of conditiol1s states. "Relocation is an
acceptable means of replJnishment." So at the applicant's
expense that would be relocat~d. He doesn't see a problem
for instance in an abutter saying there's sand on my property
because that would be moved back again. This has been done
conventionally elsewhere. When that is completed since we'll
have benchmarks and elevations, the management of that would
be carried out in an orderly fashion over the years. If it
turned out that you had redirection or a major storm event
and there is a significant amount of sand, we would do the
same, relocate the material and provide the restoration. An
abutter wouldn't be on the hook to get the sand away from his
place if it came from someplace else. Looking at the
historical aerial photography and documentation and the
records, that's about as close as I can come to a management
plan that satisfies everybody's needs and at the same time I
think we can create a more stable environment there with this
combination of activities.
Ms. McColl says what is going to stabilize the access
road while the work is being done between January to June
when you are going to be cu~ting the dune to get in there.
Right now the dune is built back up. You're going to be
cutting it to get in.
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
page 29
Mr. Forns says there wi II be conti nued work o,n the si te
and grading ~nd fOllow-up between when the snow fencing is
done by March.
Ms. McColl'sa~s Mr. Erichsen already has a foot and a
half of sand in his driveway which has come from this.
What's going to keep this from continuing to build up.
Mr. Forns says we can t~ke that sand out and bring it
back to where it was "before" -~ and put it where there. was
scouring. He thinks that creating a ~witchback pattern will
stabi,lize"., If ,it turns out that we have a problem we ~an put
somez~,gza:g fe'1cing in as' a hold.', Notes we"re only talking
about~the area~.that are pr~sently unveg?tated.
Discussion resumes about whether or not the project to
maintain the driveway was abandoned and the differences of
opinion with regard to the historic feature changes over the
years since 1975. Also whether the dune is a dune, a
vegetated dune, a shifting dune or a dynamic dune as it
'applies to the right of access--vehicular or foot or
emergency.
Mr. Woll says he thinks we are getting off the track
because if you look ~t the aerial photos you see a definite
access from Pennsylvania and Rhode Island Avel1ue. With all
due respect to your personal knowledge, there has been
vehicular access.
{
Ms. McColl disagrees in the summer of 1990 there was only
a footpath to this house and the neighboring house.
Mr. Woll continues, if a winter comes or a storm comes
and fills an access what you're saying is the landowner has
no right to remove the sand to maintain that access. The
order of conditions permits this landowner to move sand
around on his property to maintain access. The landowner
also has a right to have all of the sand moved from
Pennsylvania and Rhode Island Avenue from the road that is
shown on a registered apprbvedsubdivision of that location
to maintain access to his property. The landowner is not
asking this board to do that. I'm not sure the lanpowner has
to ask th i s board to t-emove sand from a reg is tered p I an of a
subdivision approved by this town. But we aren't asking
that. What we are looking to do is to maintain an access
that existed since this person has owned this property that
filled in or was scoured out from time to time and this board
cannot, I believe, take the position that if sand fills in
that access then that landowner cannot maintain that access
whether it's been filled for a year or two years. There is
no doctr-ine of abandonment of that access on an ordel- of
:;;. f:';lI(-4it'i-:. F~)'~t~-~-",~,.", .I_
~eeting MiAutes fQr December 19. 1991
page 30
conditions and on an order of conditions with a certificate
of compliance that was issued ~arlier .this year saying this
1~11downer has satisfied a.ll thos&.c:onditions. Thi.s lapdowner
has.a right to mainta:in that ac:;:(;es~ as it e)(isted_,~... the time
the order of conditions was issued and this board cannot take
away that right and 1 beg to differ with you there is no dune
in that access. There's vegetation on either side but there
is no dune where that is. There ~aybe windblown sand but
the vegetation is on either side where it's always been.
Mr. Perry says you mean you're saying a dune is not
comprised of shifting sands?
Mr. Wi'llet ?ryS 1 believe 'that is'wnat ,he"s sayjnlJ~
Mr. Woll says let me ask you tfds. If you go down Rhode
Island Avenue do you say there's a dune in the neighbor's
property because there is a foot and a half of sand?
Mr. Perry says that's where the. dune is heading, yes.
That's the toe of the dune.
Mr. Woll says is that a dune, though. My question is
more specific than that. We have a neighbor who is
complaining of sand blowing down on Rhode Island Avenue and
putting sand in front of his driveway making it difficult to
get out. He says that sand has accumulated to a foot or a
foot and a half. My question to you is, is that accumulation
something you call a dune.
',~..
Mr. Kelliher says part of a dune.
Mr. Wall says does that neighbor have the right to move
that sand.
Mr. Perry says not without a permit.
Mr. Woll says even though there might be one windstorm
that puts a foot and a half of sand in front of that
driveway, even on a registered, recorded right of way on a
plan of land.
Mr. Perry says I do not speak for the commission but in
my opinion he does not have permission to move that sand
around, it's a dune.
Mr. Forns says with the order of conditions he does.
Mr. Woll says that's one issue. That may be your
position as a matter of law. So this board is going to go
ahead and be at 10gget-heads wi th the DPW or the 'f ire
department or other boards in this town interested in
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
page 31
maintaining those roads open. The factor that is unique to
this particular property which the neighbor doesn't have is
this property ha$ an order of conditions permitting him to
move sand arofnd on his property to maintain that access.
Mr. Willet says he thinks it is more specific than that.
Mr. Perry says you have to go back further than that.
The Notice of Intent was filed. You had two choices. First
he wanted to put a second story on the house or expand. He
was not allowed to expand but was allowed the second story.
When it was filed there was a problem with the access in and
out of, the house. There was windblown sand up against the,
doors. That's'what they were a~l~wed to move .d theycduld,
open the door of the hous.; Noth~ng ~n the Notice of Intent
or in the Order of Condition~ provides vehicular access.
Mr. Forns reads from the notice: To permit egress to the
property and buildings and that's what the authorization is
on your conditions. To relocate sand.
Mr. Perry continues Mr. Anapol owned it in 1976, he
presumes~ Shows a picture of the area in 1976 when he didn't
have vehicular access.
Mr. Anapol says he absolutely did.
Mr. Woll says this house couldn't have been built without
vehicular access. Now it's a question of maintaining that
access that the order of~condition allows.
Mr. Willet suggests we get some input from the \
commissioners on how the plan should be treated and also a
course of action.
Ml-. Kelliher says in his experience with the proposed
driveway even though it wiggles a little bit we are still
going to have scouring around the house. Will have the same
problem you had this fall. And the sand from around the
house is going to blow right down Rhode Island Avenue.
You're got to have bigger wiggles in the road than that. It
is going to be like a funnel. Loose sand from around the
house is going to continue to disappear. You're going to
need a constant stream of trucks out there to replenish it
every time the wind blows.
Mr. Anapol says Dan, you and I know that for years that
sand never moved. The sand was on top of the porch and you
had to shovel it off.
Mr. Kelliher says that's because the dune was a different
configurat.ion.
I~~C-
:, ..;~.WO;ard"".t;r,,,,,,
" ':\,-~{ 'lll'*,,'iifJ'i'\e,
Meeting Miriutes;loT t>ecember 19, 1991
page 32
Mr. Anapdl says it changes year to year.
Mr. KellIher says from the looks of this picture taken in
1976 the dune was between the house and Rhode Isl.s'nd Avenue.
Mr. Anapol says we always drove right over that.
Mr. Kelliher says there's a car that is ~arked there.
Mr. Willet says 'he tends to agree with Mr. Kelliher--it's
just a tunnel c-nd is still a tunnel-. We're going, to have
pr:lblems.
M,,-. Wo II says are you siJ,ggest i ng thc.'tz igzag b,g ~h~rper
then.
Mr. Willet says I would think that may do a little more.
Mr. Kelliher says it would ~low the sand down.
Mr. Willet says he thinks th'at's a little heavier impact
than we'd like to see but at this point we're open to,
anything new ,and novel.
Mr. Woll says he 'thinks one of their concerns was you
might react negatively to a sharper zigzag.
Mr. Willet says it is going to impact to a larger degree.
What we've been trying t6 do is to minimize this whole thing.
Mr. Forns says we have made switchback roadways to the
beaches on the Vineyard. Granted we're showing this as a
plan but the plan is not cast in concrete; there'~ nothing
that's permanent. If it turns out that snowfencing has to be
a little sharper, it may be that the side slopes can be
vegetated, there can be other conditions where we can spray
material on. Having the access and having a problem are two
things that have to' be r-esolved.
Mr. Willet says the definition of access-~vehicular
access right to the house -- we don't think that is the case
and that's essentially why we've been trying to steer you in
this direction (a footpath) which you've been very reluctant
to take up.
Mr. Wall says we do have a core of a management plan and
it's being done in such a way to take a step and see what the
I
effect is, then take the next step based upon it.
Mr. Willet says he thinks that is what we were suggesting
before. To see how it stabilizes first, leave it alone and
~eU-ng MJ,nutes fpx December 19, 1991 page 33
don't keep blowing the tunnel through there and see what we
can do. Can we stabilize this or are there so~e other
effects here that we don't understand. As I say, fine,
stabilize thi~ ar-ea tU.lt leave the driveway, just don't get
into that at the moment.
Mr. Forns says that is the last thing we are going to do.
Ms. McColl says but you just said you were going to open
it up.
Mr. Fornssays ~heopening is o~ly going to be 4' as I
say in the plan. We will make that a tighter sw~'tchback.
. :
'Mr. Wilson says 4' acc.essthrough this prop03=d S'
driveway area. What's going to go through 4'--a bobcat? Are
you going to drive through that area. What are the
elevations of the cut that you intend to make through that
area to give whatever vehicle you're going to drive through
access. There are no elevations whatsoever on this.
Mr. Forns says if you'll read the document we say we are
going to leave the initial pathway at grade.
Mr. Wilson says as it is right now?
Mr. Forns says at grade.
Mr. Wilson says what ,ve~icle are you going to drive
through there; the last .J:ehicle~that tried to go through
there got stuck.
Mr. Forns says at this point it will be just the workers
putting uP snowf~nce.
Mr. Wilson says but you are going to be bringing in some
sand, r'ight?
Mr. Forns says later, towards the end of it.
Mr. Wilson says when they begin the work this winter are
they walking in?
Mr. Forns says yes, they are just bringing in four or
five bundles of snowfencing.
Mr. Wilson says where it says access and grading,
Decemb~r/January, they will be walking in with the materials?
Mr. Forns says we wanted to use a little bobcat to create
a little path on the unvegetated portion.
~
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
page 34
Mr. Woll says the plan is this. There is an access at
prese'nt that a bobcat will go through and turn into a
switchback. It willac:centuatethe switchback mare and we'll
see what the impact will be. It will be an access that is 4'
w~de because that is what a bobcat does and will eliminate
some of the straightness of that path. We'll see if that
works. It may need to he sharp~r later and may need some
sandfencing later but let's go ahead and take it step by
step. Zigzag more so we will reduce the flow of sand that's
coming through there right now and then put in at the same
time the sandfencing and if we need more sandfencing up
towards there, then we can try that and see how that works.
And take it step by 'step as we go along.
Mr: Wilsori says o.k.
Ms. McColl says so you'll be opening the driveway up
right away?
Mr. Woll says it's not a driveway.
Ms. McColl says you're opening the aCcess up right away?
Mr. Woll says the access is there right now.
Mr. Willet says a footpath.
Mr. Woll says right now it's fairly straight. If we
switch it back and make it less straight but do the
switchback right now, th"hwill eliminate, hopefully, and
entrain some of that sand. If that's not sharp enough or we
can't abate that further by some additional zigzags and
sandfenc i ng. . .
)
Mr. Willet says that's fine as long as it's not wider
than the footpath.
Mr. Wilson says may we have elevations. How deep you
intend to go on that?
Mr. Forns says we haVe the base plan done now and once we
get the snowfencing located and everything in, we have 50me
benchmarks we're working from and will have a series of
elevations.
Mr. Wilson says before any cut is made?
Mr. Forns says before the cuts are done we'll have
elevations. Notes we do have to put fill in by the corner of
the house.
M!-. Pen-y sa,'s and the fill is coming from trle cut?
~leeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
page 35
Mr. Forns says we aren't making the cut per s~. He
thinks they'll take, it from the driveway portion down by
Rhode Island Avenue.
(,r. Perry says so you' nt go i ng to take a bobcat, .f ill it
up with sand and put it down behind the house, over and over
again?
Mr. Kell ih~l- says what' s going to happen whent.he bobcat
get's stuck going over the dune like the backhoe did?
Mr. For,ns says we' 11 come back and. say we have a prob I em
a~d think df' sOMethi~g different.
Mr. Wilson asks if there is sufficient sand in Rhode
Island Avenue to do what you want to do?
Mr. Forns says enough to do the initial filling. To
complete the job as is noted on the plan we will need about
200 yards.
Mr. Woll says it may be with the sandfencing in there we
might entrain enough sand to minimize the impact.
Mr. Wilson says this was the suggestion he made the last
time you were here, that perhaps ,that's what you should do
first and leave the driveway alone.
Mr. Forns says that'~what we're doing first.
Mr. Wilson says then why do you have to go in with the
bobcat?
Mr. Woll says the issue of the switchback is to
accentuate the switchback so there is less of a funnel.
Mr. Wilson says but you are going to be lowering the
elevation of that notch.
Mr. Willet says, Mr.Wils,on, you'l-e appr'oach would be to
just put the snowfence into position now and see what
happens. Then go on to the next step. That sounds
reasonable to me.
Mr. Wilson says, but J'm saying, do not do the
switchback.
Mr. Willet says let it go at that and see how we do there
and then let's go from there.
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
page 36
Mr. Forns $ays if someone comes along from the. insurance
company they at'"e going to,c:anClel the inslJrance on the house
because the Tire depar tment. doesn I ct.. have access.
Mr. Willet says the fire department hasn't had access for
years.
Mr. Wasierski says during 1966 to 1969 he was Mr.
Anapol's plummer. From '66 to '69 he owned a two wheel drive
vehicle. I want to guarantee you there wasabsollJtely no
vehicular access from Pennsylvania Avenue to Mr. Anapol's
cottage because I walked inthe~spring and I walked in the
fall. When I got a four whe:el drive truck in '69 I drove
0.VGr the dune to M,-. ,Hl1ap'O I' s cc.ttage _ ,'fhere .was no
vehicu'::'ar traffic for' any two whee1.: drive vehicle to get:
there during that time~period.
Mr. Anapol disagrees.
Mr. Willet says I'd like to get on with something else.
Mr. Wasierski says has anything been done in regard to
that enforcement order.
Mr. Woll says the enforcement order has been satisfied.
Mr. Wasierski says how.
Mr. Wall says we have done exactly what you've asked us
to do. We have filed, tke fencl:? is in process. The
enforcement order says to put fences up, start the fencing,
that's been started. Secondly, it says to continue to put
fencing and otherwise entrain sand. So the fencing is a
process that you start. Also the enforcement order requires
us to file a plan and that has been filed. Those are the
only two things the enforcement order asks us to do and both
of them have been don~.
Mr. Perry says the order asks within 10 calendar days to
install snow fence. Asks if that has been installed.
Mr. Woll says not completely.
Mr. Perry asks if it has been started.
Mr. Forns says it just got here today.
Mr. Perry says he was out there at 4:00 tuday and it was
no tins t a lIed.
Mr. Wall says let me point out another thing on
attachment A to the enforcement order. It says the plan
~
Me~ting Minutes for December 19, 1991 page 37
shall include but not, be limited to the following items:
locations ofe the installed snowfence and proposed snowfence
to entrap windblown sand around the house. So the
enforcement order contemplates a process we're going through.
We have endeavored to comply with that enforcement order.
Second thing, I'm not going to throw down a gauntlet. I
don't think it makes sense to do that. But I have a real
question whether this enforcement order is valid.
Mr. Willet says we hear that all the time.
Mr. Wollsays I would suggest that you find that the
enforcement order has been satisfied.
,
Mr. Willet says ~~ hasn't as of ~oday. Con(inues what I
would like to do is have you get the snowfencing in place as
is outlined in your plan. Take a look at that for a little
while; see what happens. When the snowfence is in place,
contact Mr. Perry and he'll take a look at it.
Mr. Anapol says it is in h~s driveway right now and
Stephen Rickard is going to install it.
Mr. Perry asks if we are waiving the $300/day.
Mr. Willet says he's not prepared to comment at the
moment.
Ms. McColl says if th,ey could get the snowfence up
starting tomorrow, and i-rthe driveway access area is not
touched, or used as a swi t,chback, unt i I the snowfenc i ng is
installed, and see whether or not it does what it is supposed
to do...
Mr. Perry says before they drive the bobcat up the ;hill
they should ask the commission.
Ms. McColl says we should inspect it before anything is
driven in there.
Mr. Wasierski says he thinks we should get the state down
here and get them involved.
Mr. Willet says if something isn't done by next time
he'll do a lot of commenting.
Mr. Perry says he has some questions. It says the
switchbacks will be first maintained at 4'. Is that width?
Mr. Forns says width, yes.
Mr. Perry asks what existing grade is--grade of sand.
--
",' ,,":J'~":.... '
-
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 199-1
page 38
Mr. Forns says weare using a benchmark that we started
with originally and then eventually they are going to bring
it up to that grade that showed what it was prior to then--
whenever the upgraded site plan was done--thinks it is 1985
or 1988. Bac:hil1an's plan is exhibit C. There is a date of
elevations-- (1981 revised to 1983).
Mr. Wilson reads it is between 20.2 and 20.4 feet.
know what it is now?
Do we
Mr. Forns says in some places it's down to 18. something.
Mr'. Wil?on says 'where is it where the cut is made thro~Jgh
th2 dune now, what is tiie highest ,po:n't? Has' it been
surveyed?
Mr. Forns says yes, they went out that day and put the
stakes out but part of it is built up again.
Mr. Wilson asks but what was the elevation?
Mr. Forns says he doesn't know, he doesn't have it with
him. They are just doing the pl~ns right now.
Mr. Perry continues reading the description of the
driveway construction and says, in his opinion, you can't do
that without filing a new Notice of Intent. You're filling
and altering a dune, clearly. That's not in your old permit
at all. ~
Mr. Forns says that is the last part and assumes
ev~rything else proceeds according to plan; if a new notice
is nec:essary, they will file one at that time.
Mr. Willet says first we have to get the snowfencing In
place and ~ontt do anything else. Then have them satisfy the
terms of the enforcement order. Then we'll take it from
there ...,
Ms. McColl says don't make the switchback through the
dune. Put in the snow fenc:e.
Mr. Wilson says also an elevation at this point of
existing conditions, as they are today.
Mr. Forns says they want to get all the snowfenc:ing
located first. They will then get the elevations and that
will be their base zero conditions. From those conditions we
will monitor the accretion.
.
Meeting Miuutesfor December 19. 1991
page 39
Mr. WiLlet says let us know next meeting what the
elevation is and call Mr. Perry as soon as the snowfencing is
in; we do waDt to verify that that's in.
Mr. Perry asks for a response from Mr. Anapol or his
agents' but recei~ed none.'
I':,'
,c
I
Mr. Woll says he would like to clarify one thing. He
understands this came up at the time of the decision to issue
the enforcement order that the board was concerned that no
one appeared and nothing had been filed prior to that. Is
that fair to s~y. We understand that you weren't ,made aware
that evening of Mr.F6rns'~'~all to Mr. Perry that afternoon.
, .
Commissioners~espond they knew abo~t it.
Mr. Perry says it is in the minutes, that Mr. Forns
called somewhere ,between 4 and 4:30 p.m. the afternoon of the
meeting and left a message on the tape.
Ms. McColl says, we were, told he called quite late in the
afternoon of the day he was told to be here two weeks ahead
CJ f time.
Mr. Wall says it seems to him, looking at this, that
there is SOme antagonism.
Mr. Willet says what it is we have a certain approach of
something wearetnying to do and we're not getting very much
cooperation. Obviously you believe vehicular access is your
absolute right. We feel that perhaps you don't have to have
vehicular access right to the house. That seems to be the
sticking point only because it is the only access and it is a
straight line and it~s blowing out that whole area.
Mr. Wall says he gets a sense that there's an emotional
content to this as far as the board is concernedA
Mr. Willet says only because perhaps it's been going on
for so long and nothing is being resolved.
Mr. Wall says he thinks we ought to be aware of that
emotional content and be careful of how it might drive
behaviors. There are differences of opinion as to
observations, what one should and should not have. But those
differences of opinion have to be respected and should not
rise to the personal level.
Mr. Willet says absolutely; I agree one hundred percent.
b. Mink - 83 Squaffi Road - SE48-668 - (13-5) minor mod
Meet~ng Minute~ for Pecember 19, 1991
page 40
Present is the new owner Mr. Roy Makowsky.
Mr. Perry says one of the conditions the order required
on this property was to come back when they had some house
plans.
Mr. Makowsky presents a new plan with the building
envelope. Since arc's were used to get it away from the
wetland the line and they are proposing minor mods which will
give up a little and ask for a little because they will build
the house square and not with arcs. The second thing is they
had first tried to incorporate the existing house into their
plan but found there were a lot of problems with it so have
decid,ad tG move the t)Ciuse a,wilY and in exchange, 'for 'giving 'up
sOflleproJ-:imity of the ,'wetlanc-s w~",ere the footprint of the
house is, they hope to be able to expand out on the lower
side. The other problem with the footprint is the driveway
approach which he would like to straighten. The final change
is they would like a brick and dry sand terrace in lieu of a
wrap around porch which wouldn't fit. There are also going
to be 6' doors on the back of the house and they would like a
lit~le overhang to keep the water from blowing in and
leaking. Notes the plan shows in orange the improved
envelope that they don't want to use, the purple is outside
the approved envelope where because the house is a rectangle
they have to go outside a little. So instead of 28' from the
wetlands they are bringing it back almost 50. In return they
want to come out down on the side making it 40' from the
wetlands. In essence, they want to move the entire structure
back further from the we!land except for the rectangle area.
Notes the coastal bank is a very mature bank and has a lot of
vegetation; in the last storm the debris line was at the base
of the coastal bank.
Mr. Willet asks Mr. Perry what he thinks about making
this request as a minor mod.
Mr. Perry says he doesn't have much ofa problem with all
this give and take.
Mr. Makowsky says if there is a problem with any of the
suggestions they are flexible. If the patio is going to be
obje4tionable they can move it back.
Mr. Willet says if you can move that back it will be
good.
Mr. Perry adds if the overhang is one or two feet he sees
no problem but thinks extending out to 44' is more than a
minor mod.
I
'Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
page 41
Mr. Makowsky says he could also cut the overhang in half
to 3-3 112 I .
MOTION: To grant the request as a minor modification
with a 3' overhang making it 47' from the bank is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
c. Voigt - Sta~buck Rd - discussion septic replacement
Present for the applicant is Attorney Melissa Philbrick.
M~. Ph~lbrick~ays the s~ptic system' has ~~iled. Point~
out' the lot and lando,wned by the Conser~ation Comc"ission.
It is subject to sOfi\erestrictions for conservation pUt-poses
and is to be kept open but recognizes that it may need to be
used by abutters for replacement of failed septic systems.
1t does not create that right without an easement, however.
She. is here to see if we are comfortable with them putting in
a septic system to replace" the failed system. She will have
to go to Town Meeting to get permission from the town.
Commissioners review the plan and see no problem.
.-
Ms. Philbrick says she will talk to the Board of
Selectmen about getting on the warrant.
Mr. Perry suggests a~ter she has drafted the
documentation and the ea~ement plans the commission submit it
to the Board for her in order to save the ten signatures.
d. ZBA Application - 10 Starbuck Rd. - (59.3-062)
e.
Mtg w/DEP- 1/7/92
10 am, Sesachacha Pond
f. Land Court Petition - Slade - <73.1.3-27)
Mr. Perry says they want to register a parcel of land in
Codfish Park and the question is do we have any interest. It
is within our jurisdiction.
Attorney Arthur Reade says no one is proposing to do
anything; it's just a matter ~f registering title.
Commissioners agree we have no inter-est.
6. CORRESPONDENCE
r
.
Meeting Minutes for December 19, 1991
7. MINUTES: for Decemb~r 5, 1991
page 42
MOTION: To accept the minutes as drafted is made and
seconded.
UNANIMOUS
B. BILLS TO BE PAID
9. FIELD INSPECTIONS: Monday, January 6, 1992 3:30
MOTION: To Adjourn the meeting at 10:45 p.m. is made
and seconded.
UIW~N I NOUS
.<