HomeMy WebLinkAbout1991-06-13
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Town o.f Nantucket
. I".'. '
Conservation. Commission
(508) 22S.7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
The meeting was c lIed to order at 7:02 p.lTl. in the Large
Group Instruction Roo, of the Nantucket High SchooL
Commissioners present were William Willet, Laura HusslieY, Peter
Dunwiddie, Henry Wasierski, Daniel Kel1 ihel- and Peter Wi lson.
Also present were Bruce Perry, Administrator, and LuCia Wyeth,
secretary. I
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MINUTES FOR JUNE 13. 1991
~ COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS FROM PRESS AND PUBLIC
~ PUBLIC HEARINGS
1. Richarrls,,'"'"",eS E. Tristram Ave. - SE48-609 - (31-1)
MOTION: To continue at the a'pplicant's request is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
2. Poor - Quidnet - SE48-63S (20-49, 50.2, 50.3; 21- 58, 119)
3. Poor - Quidnet - SE48-637 (21-122,118.1,119.1,119.2)
Present are Mr. Poor and Mr. Les Smith of Daylor
Consulting.
Mr. Smith says it is his understanding that at the last
meeting you had requested some information on crossings and
culverts and Ms. Standley has provided that in the form of the
supplemental information and a letter dated June 6, 1991.
Reviews the proposed culverts and bridges. No. 1 is the
Quidnet Milk Run and there are no proposed changes. It was
there prior to Mr. Poor's ownership. He has done some
modification to it.
Mr. Wasierski says that's PVC. That's not work in a
wetland?
Mr. Smith says there are 2 PVC pipes coming through. That
is work but is replacement of what was there previously.
Continues crossing No.2 they are replacing a PVC pipe culver";
with an 8' wide WOod bridge which will span a 10' wetland.
Propose to take down to the existing level.
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation Commission
(508)228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 2
Mr. Perry says at the field inspection the commissioners
thought it should be taken out and the area restored.
Questiol'ls the need to provide access for every squa.re foot of
his property, especially as the work already done ,intjhere has
caused siltation in the pond. Also questions the advisability
of replacing a culvert with a bridge.
Mr. Poor says with regard to the siltation in the pond he
has he responded to this board and put a double row of
haybales quite awhile ago.
Mr. Smith states at No.3 culvert will be.e.pl~c:ed by a
bridge and relocated. The area will be restored and
stabUi zed using a geotechnical fabr ic and seeding wi th rye
grass. No.4 will be maintained as is with 2PVC pipes,
planks and rip rap edge. No.5 by the fenced pasture will be
removed and the fill s.tab i 1 i zed to the or i g i na I contours
restored. No.6 they propose to move the bridge to another
location and restore the wetland area.
Mr. Poor notes one crossing path has already been closed.
Mr. Willet says there were some areas that were dug out
including a shrub swamp. Asks Mr. Poor if he is seeking any
permit at this point or looking at that at all.
Mr. Perry says they were identified as Pi, P2 and P3 and
are altered wetlands which the commissioners remember as being
shrub swamp and now is open water. Notes that these are other
areas of alteration which also need permits.
Mr. Poor says he was not at the previous meeting and in
talking to Lisa was only aware of the culvert situation.
Mr. Smith says he also was not aware of these concerns.
Mr. Perry says they~re still wetlands but they have been
altered.
Mr. SMith asks what else.
Town of Nantucket
Conserva.tidn Commission
(508) 228-72.30
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page _
Mr. Perry says they propose to file as a limited project
which is $250 for each wetland cro~sing. Six crossings would
be $1,500.
Mr. Poor says he is unaware of this but if we need a check
we'll get the check in the morning.
Mr. Smith says Mr". Poor has a plan to present an
agricultural plan to the area but he wasn't available for this
evening.
Mr. Poor says Don Liptack of the Soils Conservation
Service was going to present the agricultural plan that he
presented. previou~ly to the Nantucket Conservation Di$tric~_
Wi 11 try to schedule for the next meet ing.
Mr. Perry says the notice calls for on-going agricultural
practices. But the photographs show that there was not a farm
there before the Wetland Protection Act. The work that he is
proposing out there in the wetlands and in the buffer zone
needed. to come to us before the work was done. It may turn
into an agricultural project when he gets the Order of
Conditions from us on this Notice. But at this point it
doesn't qualify.
Mr. Wasierskisays he doesn't understand why we need all
the roads and culverts for agriculture.
Mr. Poor says in order to hav~ reasonable access for
machinery and livestock from one pasture to another.
Mr. Wasierski asks what the viewing stand has to do with
agriculture.
Mr. Poor says it doesn't; it was put up to view the area.
Ms. Creighton says she doesn't understand how trre project
can come under a agricultural limited project. When you read
thCl definition in' the Wetland Protection Act it calls for land
that is "presently and primarily used for agricultural
purposes ". DEP Po licy #90-1 . interprets c I ear I y onl y por t ions
of any given parcel that are currently and directly being usee
for agriculture may qualify as a limited project status. This
only a very small portion has traditionally been used for
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation Commission
(508) 22S.7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meet(}.ng Minutes for June 13, 1991
agricultural use so she does not understand how it can qualify
as a limited project.
Mr. Poor says all th'e la.nd is in agricultural use. Points
out fields planted w'ith ,winter rye and all the fields are in
ongoing process of rebuilding soils. Other fields are pasture
:~=nh~~~ ~~~nm=~;~e:n~nr~:l~~t~~:lr:~~~:~:d~ra~:::ra~:e::i~:ve
to be allowed to come back and they plan to work with old
grasses that were once here and annually mow and keep out the
scrub vegetation and use as a grazing and hay area. Disagree
with the statement for virtually all of the property how is ir
agriculture. One of the things he is working with is to bring
back old grasses that were there into hay and not just take
every area and till it because he thinks much of the old
grasses. are still in the ground. Shortly plans to graze
sheep in the area and have recently purchased a couple of beef
cattle and will gradually increase the herds and bring the
area back into 100'l. agriculture use.
Page 4
Ms. Creighton says her question lies in the fact that many
parts of the proposal are for roadways which cross wetlands,
filling of wetlands, culvert installations, for mowing and
brush cutting up to and in some cases digging within wetland
resource areas, and they are being presented as ongoing
agricultural practices but in fact they have been begun and
done without a permit.
Mr. Willet says this is something Mr. Poor has pretty well
summed up. It can't be looked at as having been in
agricultural use. This is something Mr. Poor has developed.
Mr. Wasierski says he would have to agree with Ms.
Creighton. The areal photographs we looked at didn't show
this as pasture or farm land. There is no doubt that it was
brush and trees and it appears that everything that Mr. Poor
purports to be agricultural land is land that he has made
agricultural land without a p.ermit. Doesn't think we should
accept it as being under..agriculture. He's gone ahead and
done it without any care or interest in anyone else. The
culverts are allPVC which means they have been done within
the. last 30 years. You c:lon,'teven know ,there were culverts
there previously because there aren't photographs.
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Town of Nalltucket
Conserv ationCommissi on
't'
(508) 228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts: 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 131 1991
Mr. Kell.iher says there were some wooden cU.verts i~ Squ6~
Swamp previously.
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Mr. Perry says if the commission doesn't consider it a
limited project they can'request it as a regular driveway arc:
road crossing. The perfor~ance standards are different and
replication may be required of up to 5000 sq. fit. of
alterations.
PagE 5
Dr. Dunwiddie asks what is the amount of area that is
being altered.
Mr. Smith says that Dr. Standley documented the
alterations that she estimated associated with crossings. T~e
largest! ...as 1000 sq. ft. at crossing#4~ In the proposal sr,=
mentionS doing wetland replication. We wanted to get some
feedback from the commission but it was anticipated.
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'.:"Mr'"'. :W.illet says he thinks we will need to go that way.
Mr: Wasierski says he thinks there was more than culverts;
in area D and E there was a large sloping area whe~e the
runoff was right into the wetland with absolutely no buffer--
or minimum buffer, that had been tilled, planted and he
presumes will have to be fertilized. Thinks was between D a-j
E.
Mr. Perry says it could have been a grass swale coming
down.
Mr. Poor points out a sloping area that is in natural
grass and ry&. Says there he wants to make the natural
grasses come back that were once there. Point~ out other
areas he has tilled which includes the goat pen.
Mr. Perry says the plan submitted at the January meeting
showed areas designated B as altered wetlands but the new pl::n
they took the B's off. There are over 100,000 sq ft. of
wetland that has been altered. Even if the survey is off by
10-15% there is still well over 5,000 sq. ft. The commissic-:
needs to decide how the limited project is to work. The por::
can go under limited project for farm ponds. Then replicaticn
is not required. If its not ali~ited project then our hanes
are tied without requiring a variance from the DEP
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation' Commission
(508) 228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 6
Commissioner because of wetland alterations. Notes Area 8 is
now included in A.
Dr. Ounwiddiesays he thinks the question for each of the
areas should be what have they.done to them now to so
designate them as undisturbed wetlands. Would we want them to
do anything differently than what they have done. If we want
them to do something else to restore them, so designate.
Otherwise what I understand from this plan is they are just
going to let them grow back.
Mr. Willet says he would just as soon let them grow back.
Dr. Dunwiddie says there were a couple of areas that we
thought were wetlands that have not been designated. Asks if
they have been added.
Mr. Smith says we are waiting for them to grow back.
There is no water there. He believes something could be
worked out as a limited restriction for those areas.
Mr. Wasierski questions two access points to the same
place.
Mr. Poor explains he has to go off the property at one
spot. Also wilL need to bring tractors as well as animals by
the most direct route. He intends to put the property in
conservation and run a farm for a combination of things, one
being rare breeds of farm animals and the other is to use it
as awild life habitat and.a resource to work with children on
Nantucket toeduca~e theffi on animal and wildlife usage. Needs
some access to get around. In spite of the past difference
with the Commission, the mo.tivation he has for this property
once he gets this into conservation, will be compatible with
the goals of this board. H~ is obviously going to keep the
ability to live on the property himself. Is in the middle of
talking with two organizations at the present- time. The goal
is by early fall to have all the land under conservation and
have it so it is not land that gets subdivided. He knows
quite a bit about the land and appreciate the value of the
combination of habitat& that are here and in just what has
happ~n~d there has been a much greater diversity in the
wildlife activity in the area.
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Town of NgIltucket
Conservation Commission
(508) 228-723(1
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page ....,
Mr. Willet asks if he intends to get a conservation
restriction for the property.
Mr. Poor says he is puttihg this land 100% into
conservation.
Dr. Dunwiddie asks if he can be more specific in terms of
a conservation organization owning it or placing a restrictior
oni t .
Mr. Poor says this probably would be owned by a
conservation orga~ization. We are presently talking about
doing a joint venture with a national organization and with
ano ther that wor ks thro.ughout Massachl,1setts to do a
comb i na t ion of preservi hg the wildl ife hab i tat and to run a
farm for rare breeds of farm animals wi th beef cattle and witr,
sheep with the intent to show mainly-in the sheep area that
graz)D9 ~heep could be successfully brought to Nantucket and
as a source of agriculture use, especially on conservation
land, would make good sense. It is going to be some sort of a
joint venture between two conservation organizations. At the
present time we don't know if one is going to own it and one
is going to hold a restriction onit or it just may be in
joint ownership. Those are details that it is too early to
tell. It never has been any intention of mine to be a pi~ce
of land, even though I am in the development business, to be
developed. I consider this land a very important parcel of
land in this unique habitat with a mixture of uplands and
wetlands and forests that is a beautiful spot. I'm not
looking to destroy it, I'm looking to enhance it. I'm well
awal-e I 'm off on the wrong foot with this board.
Mr. Smith says he thinks what Dr. Standley is trying to do
in this proposal is to eliminate as much as possible the
wetland crossings by bridging them in places that seem
reasonable.
Mr. Poor responds to question on a ditch. Believes it
previously connected the two wetlands~ It was apparently dug
prior to mosquito ditches. He believes in ancient times
flooding of the swamps was encouraged. Says the ditch has
never flowed in the nine years since he has been there in
either direction, to PolpisHarbor or to Squam Pond. The
water never backs up that far. Continues to discuss various
:". swamps, ditches, direction of water flow and elevations.
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Town of. Nantucket
Conservation Commission ~
(508) 22~- ':"2:30
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for Jun~13' 1991
Mr. Perry ask~ what is the reasoning be ind the two
crossing relocations, especially in culvert where you
already have a path going through the we:t;larid now you're
to alter another section to add a bridge.
Page _
goi-;
Mr. Smith says he thinks the idea is th~t a bridge coule
easily be placed here and the culvert couldtbe restored so
there would be no net loss of wetland.
Mr. Poor says he doesn't care, he would do whatever this
board wants to do. Leave that one and if you want to
replicate the area somewhere and increase the wetland it is
fine with him. He's not interested in eliminating wetlands -'Q
thinks wetlands in some cases need to be enhanced. Obviousl.
in the future, I need to make the proper application to do i:.
Mr. Willet suggests they look at the crossings at field
inspection.
Mr. Poor says he doesn't have a problem with what we do _
just needs reasonable access for long term he plans to have
- 100 animals in this area to move back and forth between
pastures. If he has a carr idor it wi 11 be easier to keep thE"
out of the wetlands.
Mr. Willet asks for questions from the audience.
Mr. Ed O'Lear, an abutter, identifies an area and asks _
it will all be a part of the conservation area.
Mr. Poor says that is not all his property and also poir::;
out there are no wetlands in that area.
Ms. Karen Pelr ine asks how much o,f the land in quest ion ::;
actually, clearly owned by you.
Mr. Poor says he has title on all the property. Some of
the land he has fee simple title, other-lands he has sheep
common ownership. There is abOut 150 acres, 40 acres of whi:~
h.has total title and th~ balance he hassheep's common tit:e
(A).. ...Wh.iCh is a grazing title. In the old days they divided up
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Town of Nantucket
Conservatioh Commission
~
(508) 228-7230 .
10 South Beach Street
.N antucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 9
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land for grazing purposes that way but your ownership would be
the same as if five of us owned a property together dnd were
tenants by the entirety but; each person ha$ the right to use
the total property. In some cases he knows the people who
have partial interest and heco,mes into contact with some of
them several times a year. Some are trying to sell their
interest far a substantial price. Doe is well aware of his
activities. One he talks to all the time.
Mr. Willet asks Mr. poor if he will provide an attorney's
statement of his title or interest to this property.
Mr. Poor says he will get a statement. He will have the
title examiner who, has done his title doa summary and give it
to his attorney.
Mr. Perry says we will need this to do an order of
conditions-as We can't issue,:one without the owner's
permissio(lobec:ause it goesolrLthetitle. If he owns a portion
of the share he owns a portion interest; we don't need to see
clear title.
Mr. Poor says in most cases the land was ()wned by people
who abandoned their title to join the gold rush. As the land
is laced with wetlands and private roads were never
constructed a lot af it has difficult acces~. They did
extensive title searc:h before buying it from the Coffins. At
the time they were relatively eLderly and knew that they had
other grazing title and we purchased it from them at that
time.
Ms. Pelrine asks if you dan't have to, wait 20 years.
Ml-. Poor says that is if you take land by adverse
passession. He already has sheep common ownership in the
property. It is arela~ively complex title.
Mrs. Hussey asks what is our regulations about pasturing
wetlands.
Mr. Perry says locally you need anSCSplan to protect
erosion contral and siltatiooin the wetland.
Dr. Dunwiddie says what do you do to prevent animals from
grazing in the wetlands.
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Town of Nqritucket
Conservation Commission
(508) 228-7230
10 South Beach Street
N rntucket, Massachusetts 02554
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Meeting Minutes..f9rJune 13, 1991
Page 10
Mr. Poor says an Australian ~lectric fente.
Someone asks if it will be open to the public.
Mr. Poor says yes and no. It will have limited public
access. He would like to open it to Nal'ltucket children for
educational experience in a farming environment. Also will be
working with organiza~ions like the University of
Massachusetts for studies of grasslands.
Mr. Perry asks ifth~re is a problem where you don't have
a clear title.
Mr. Poor says not if you do an APR with the state.
Dr. Dunwiddie asks how can we-tell if you 'are serious
about linking this with a conservati-.on restriction.
A commissioner says what if you change your mind and
decide not to do this project. Thinks it is somewhat suspect.
It has been said that you were quoted as saying that you were
brushcutting to develop.
Mr. Poor says he has never considered developing the land.'
Intends to put it in conservation. If I don't farm, it will
lie fallow. It will have a restriction .that once it goes into
conservation it can't come out. If you wal'lt to hold up the
approval until it gets into conservation, it is fine with me.
Mr. Poor continues the proposal consists of multiple
numbers of parcels and what, he is looking for from a parcel
thing, he just~ants to protect his family so they can have a
home up there and one other person that he can't mention.
Otherwise, he doesn't know how many parcels are up there but
if there are 8 to 10 parcels and on Nantucket you can put 2
houses per parcel; I'm not interested in putting 20 homes
there but I would certainly want to be able to put if I had
whatever number of people working on the farm or there were
some research going on some rights to that, but I don't need
two houses for myself, one's enough. I live in the barn.
This thing on that agriculture is for me I'm in my early
fifties and I'm getting into an.area .of knowledge that I know
nothil"lg about but I'm consuming books and intend to go back
.~ "and go to school and it's like a whole new life. SO
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation Commission
(508) 2,28';7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13. 1991 Page 11
hopefu 11 y I' 11 be remembered as the farmer. And I hope tha t
we can resolve our issues hee. .
Ms. Creighton says sf)e wpuldliketo submit a letter, the
points of which we have alre!ady talked about.
Mr. Willet asks for a motion to continue for a site visit.
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Mr. Poor asks if you need any more information.
Mr. Smith says they have all the information they just
want to take a look at those crossings.
Mr. Poor says he doesn't care where we move the crossings
he just thinks he need~them to access what he wants. To
eliminate certain ones you Just can't get there from here and
a prohibitive distance to get around is going to make it
extremely difficult.
Mr. Creighton asks if you are going to request the pond
information be included as part of the notice.
Mr. Willet says yes.
Mr. Poor says any time anyone wants to come up and take a
look, this includes anyone in the audience, just please give
me a call before you come and you're welcome.
MOTION: To continue the hearing for a field
inspection and additional information is made and
seconded.
UNANIMOUS
4. Gamble - 90 Pocomo Road -SE48-654
(15-43)
Present is Richard Gamble, Travis Price and Rob Bigelow,
Architects.
Mr. Price says in the previous request two sets of stairs
were approved. In response to the concerns at the last
hearing they have removed the second stairway and eliminated
the ?mall road which has always been there. They have set the
posts back from the edge and have come down by code to two
','\A landings where they have added a couple of seats to provide
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Town of ~antucket
Conservation .Commis~ion
(508) 22S.7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minut~s for June 13, 1991
Page 12
rest points along the way. Says the width is 4'; 3 1/2 to 4'
is standard in the area. The footings are three to four feet.
Thi$ is the actual slope in terms of rise.
Mr. P~rry said he had a question if the stairs weren't too
far out onto the beach to obstru~tpassage but at high tide
there will be 15' from the stairs to the water.
Mr. Price says a storm tide might be higher but there is
enough room to get a jeep by.
Mr. Wasierski asks if there has been erosion on this bank
in the last few years.
Mr. Price says no, they have been watching ital'ld they
think it is the same; it is so heavily brushed along tha~ edge
except for one spot and going down the bank some areas are
vegetated and some are not.
Mr. Wilson says the las~ section could be under water in
the winter and suggests that section be aluminum.
Mr. Perry says he thinks the HDC would not allow but he
could put it in the order.
Mr. Wasierski asks if there is
stairway has to be built straight.
jogs. Thinks the one down the way
the bank.
anything that says a
Suggests landings and
is horrendously high off
Mr. Price that would rEquire more posts and might be more
damaging to the slope.
Dr. Dunwiddie asks if itis possible to make a straight
shot stairway all the way down.
Mr. Bigelow says by code you have to have a landing.
Mr. Wasierski says he'd like to endorse the fact they are
removing one stair and the walk; thinks that is better than a
minor modification.
Mr. Perry asks about the swimming pool.
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Town of. Nantucket
Conservation Commission
(508)228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 13
Mr. Price says there is no change.
be designed like a little lagoon.
Is 55' back, 'and will
Mr. Perry says we talked about a fence around it and he
was going to suggest 35' undisturbed between the pool and the
bank to allow for the fence.
Mr. Wright says he doesn't think they will want more than
20' around the pool.
MOTION: To close the hearing and draft an order was
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
5. Nantucket Bank - 100 Pleasant St. ~ SE48-652 - (55-145)
Present for the applicant is Robert Emack of Nantucket
Surveyors.
Mr. Emack presents the revised'plan showing detail on the
catch basins. Propose installing an oil absorbent boom. Is
like a donut and will be suspended just above the invert
elevation. The decided on this rather than a pillow as they
thought a pillow might clog the opening.
Mr. Wasierski asks so that would just float on the water
level at all times.
Mr. Emack says no, it will be suspended just above the
invert elevation so that it will work if the water rises.
Dr. punwiddie asks if the water goes all the way up the
~il won't be separated as they are going to be held down.
Mr. Emack says that's right.
Mr. Perry says in a storm the water and oil will be mixed
up, it's not going to be all floating on the surface.
Mr. Emack says there is no advantage to having it float,
it will absorb the oil whether it is floating or down below.
Mr. Willet aska for questions on the order as drafted.
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Town ofNClntucltet
~Conserv a ti onfCommission
. .
(508) 228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, M assachusetr 02554
MJ.ION:
ma~e and
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Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 14
To close the hearing and draft the order was
seconded.
UNANIMOUS
6. Lane -' West Chester St. - SE48-653 - (41-478)
MdT ION: To continue the hearing at the request of the
applicant is made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
* 7. Craig - 1 Kimball Avenue - (30-33)
Present for the applicant is Thomas Pochman.
Mr. Pochman says. the dune above the beach has eroded and
broken off. Says they considered replacing with aluminum but
feels that the HDC would prefer wood be used as it is close to
town and visible.
Mr. Wasierski says this is going to be a perpetual
problem.
Mr. Willet reads the inspection report.
Mr. Pochman says they have tried to keep it as simple and
open as possible with the idea it might have to be moved. The
existing longer portion of stairs has a lot more detail.
Mr. Wasierski suggests a platform on top of the bank and
removable stairs extending which could be pulled up in the
winter.
Dr. Dunwiddie questions building something so substantial
and portable. Asks what does the HDC feel about stairs
littering the beach every winter after the first big storm.
Mr. Pochman says something simple is fine; they are
concerned about access and it. needs to be safe for the
grandchildren.
Mr. Perry.says sometbingc:ould be used that you could bolt
the stairs to and adjust to whatever the bank was and drop
~. down to the beach and it cou I d be pu 11 ed up and down.
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Town of Nantucket
ConservatiOn eomrnission
~... ?'
(508)228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting M~- utes for June 13, 1991
Mr,. Wasiersk i says thcflt ,at he was th ink i ng of, someth i ng
like what they use at the yac t club to get from a pier to a
float and then if there is a ,'storm you can pull it up.
Page 15
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Mr. Pochman says wouldn', t.tnCit /;lave more damage to the
dUl'le? The Craigs are Wi.I...lin~.......,....to.....,.....d...O what they have to do it
properly. If there is &$iglpJe.r, Way that would be fine.
{;:'
Commission agrees it. should be a little lighter and a
little more movable.
MOTION: To continue for a file. number and field
inspection is m4de andseconded~
. .
UNANIMOUS
c. REGULAR MEETING
1. REQUEST FOR DETERMINATION
* a. Johnson - Almanac Pond Road - (25-14)
Present for the applicant is John Newman, architect.
Mr. Willet reads the inspection report. The
recommendation is fora negativedetermi~ation.
Mr. NewMan says the reason for this request is a previous
notice of non-significance is about to expire.
MOTION: To issue a negative determination as the
proposed work is in ~he buffer zone but will not alter
is made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
* b. Wasierski - 15 Sesachacha Road - (21-21)
Mr. Wasierski and Mr. Kelliher abstain from the discussion
and the vote.
Mr~ Willet reads the inspection report. Recommends the
work be done by hand as much as possible.
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation Commission
(508) 228':7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 16
Mr. Perry says the photos show the area of the proposed
work.
Mrs. ~asierski says all that she intends to 'do is fix the
damage done by the hi~h water ~f the pond.
MOTION: To issue a negative determination as the
proposed work is in the resource area but will not
alter.
UNANIMOUS
* c. Krimme,l - 24 Rhode Island Avenue - (60.3.1-162.)
Present are Mr. and Mrs. Cady, abutters.
The applicant is not present. Mr. Perry says the request
is to extend the' first floor deck to the rear and add a small
second floor deck.
~r. Willet asks Mr. Perry what is his recommendation.
Mr. Perry says the work proposed is 100' away from the
dunes and i~ above the 100 year flood line but is almost at
the middle of Smith's Point and between two barrier beaches.
Is out of our jurisdiction and they are not expanding the
house footprint.
':'J
MOTION: To issue a negative determination and the
project is in the buffer zone but will not alter is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
2. ORDER OF CONDITIONS
a. Burke - 37 Gardner Road - SE48-645 - (43-85)
Mr. Willet abstains from the discussion and the vote.
Present are Mr. Burke, Mr. Krieger, Mr. Shugrue, Mr.
LaFrance.
Present for the abutters are Les Smith of Oaylor
~ . Consulting and a representative for Attorney Arthur Reade.
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation Commission .
(508) 22$-7~O
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 17
Mr. Kr ieger 'thanks th.e commission for their thoughtful
attention Over the last three months. Believes the draft
order is fair minded. Would like to discuss three points in
the draft additional special conditions that will have a
profound impact on the p~oject.
#4 regarding the location of a siltation fence being no
more than fifteen feet on tWD sides and #14 regarding an
undisturbed buffer between the siltation fence and the wetland
boundary. The combined limits of the area of work give only
15' at the northeast and northwest sides. Says the plans show
a dott~d lihe where we Jhad asked the siltation fence be 25' .
back. Fifteen feet is a little tight to ~ork as they need to
bring in fil.l for the slab on grade. This limitation would
restrict the contours and they would like a little more room
to allow the grade to b~more natural and tie into the
existing contours.
Mr. Perry says there i s_"some word ing in the standard order
that allows you to disturb an area temporarily during
construction then the undisturb~d buffer needs grow back.
Mr. Krieger says he needs more room on the gable end and
would like the wording changed to allow them to disturb more
than 15'. Asks what the intention is for the restrictions and
wonders if it may not be as restrictive as they had thought.
Mr. Wasierski says to protect the undisturbed buffer along
the top of the bank.
Commission discuss map points relative to the plans. Feel
they misunderstood language in the draft.
Mr. Perry notes the filling contours that we got at the
last meeting look like they are pretty much going down to
grade on the deck side. Says he understood from talking with
Mr. Krieger the intent was to draw a line 15' in front of the
deck and 15' in front of the boathouse and connect the dots.
On the gable end again there was 15'. Agrees to change the
wording on the gable end so that they can disturb more than
15' in and then replant with native species at the end of the
project.
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Town of3'Nantucket
~ -Conservation CommiSsion
(508) 228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massacqusetts 02554
!
I' Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991 Page 18
M. r. Kr ie. ger as.ks wha. t happens if the.house doe., s.n 't come
out so ar. Does the buffer move as the house moves if the
footpri t were to shrink? .
. ,
Dr. Dunwiddie says we could compromise in that case.
Mr.1 Wasierski. agrees.
\
Mr. Krieger s~ys if the house moves back the line stays--
it is fi~ed to the plan not fixed to the house.
Commissioners agree, if the hous~ moves back the line
stays. The established limit of work is fixed to the plan and
not to the house.
Mr. Krieger says the next one he wants to discuss is #19.
He probably should start with the question that's been asked
regarding the existing grade. Our interpretation was
confirmed in a phone call to Mr. Perry that existing grade is
measured from the high point of the building footprint. Asks
if that is a correct assumption.
Mr. Perry says that was his understanding and cites the
two file on Polpis Road as an example~
Mr. Wasierski says he thought it was from the lowest end
of the lot to the ~idge height and cites as an example the
Briskman file.
Mr. Kelliher says he thinks existing grade is from the
high point of the lot.
Dr. Dunwiddie says isn't it going to make it difficult to
measure in terms of compliance when existing grade no longer
exists'? If the contours don't follow it any more what do you
me~sure from?
Mr. Perry says the high point is 10.5
Mr. Krieger s~ys they have spot elevations and it is
10.75. What has been written is a27 foot height restriction
from the ridge wh ich if you assume 10' 9" from the base
elevation will put the ridge height at 37' 9" which is l'
lower than the current ridge at the low portion and 3' lower
~. '. than the high portion. That will involve a significant amount
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation Commission
(508) 228-7280
10 Soutn B~h Street
N antuck;et, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes fIr June 13, 1991 Page 19
of redesign on their part and they a e also concerned about
HDC. They don't want to see an unbr ken ridge line. Would
l~ke tbe comm~~ion to cons~deF abest~lisbment of ~ higher
ridge elevation. A 3' reduc::tion.int-idge height will make it
very difficult to get a second floorl. The only recourse is to
lower the floor but the first floor 'is pretty much tied into
the septic system. The height rest~iction as he understands
it is related to the wetland scenic iview and as he pointed out
previously the house next to it has a ridge height of about
45'. Their proposed ridge height is 39'6" and no more than'
40 '9".
Mr. Wilson asks what is the first floor ceiling.
Mr. Krieger says S'6".
Mr. Wasierski says minimum ceiling height on the building
code is 7'3".
Dr. Dunwiddie says he doesn't see this is addressing any
sort of compromise with us at all. You are asking for a 30
foot ridge line and that is the maximum you can get.
Mr. Krieger says they are figuring all this from first
floor elevations that cannot move too much due to the septic
elevations.
Dr. Ounwiddie says when weta1k about scenic view we
consider it from existing grade how far you are going above
the ground. And that's more than 30' . When we talk about
compromise to lessen the impact on scenic view we're talking
about a lot less than 30'.
Mr. Krieger says he has been talking with the HOC and they
consider it from first floor elevations so that's what he had
in his mind as a starting point.
Mr. Wasierski says for some reason I have this terrible
feeling from the ~ater that this thing is going to look
horrendous. It will be looming over the top of the bank.
We're going to sit back and say why did we ever allow
somethil'lg like that.
Mr. Krieger asks if there is any possibility for some
'~. additional height.
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation! 'Commission
(508) 22S.7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 20
Mr. Perry says we're allowing the ridge height that you've
proposed for this house. What we're changing is the first
floor elevation. So you canbl.lild the house you have
designed, it just needs to be3' lower.
Mr. Krieger says that requires a pump for the septic
system.
Mr. Wasierski says that wouldn't be the first one on
Nantucket. Suggests a generator and to hook the pump to the
generator.
Mr. Krieger says he doesn't want to belabor the point but
asks for reconsideration of the height. restrfctions to an
average ridge height of 38'6" instead of 37,'9". Says nothing
will exceed 40'3".
Mr. Burke asks what is the roof length.
Mr. Krieger says about 18' for th~-~aller section.
Mr. Perry says the Karp house is 45' but the grade change
goes .from 10'5" to 17'. When you talk 13'3" up to 17 you are
going to be 5' lower than the Ka~p house. The grade
differel'lce is only 4'; so you are actually standing up above
the grade at the same elevation. Is not going to be "snuggled
down" near the ground, it's going to be up as high in
appearance above grade.
Mr. Krieger says as you step down from the Karp house you
will get a lower ridge line and it keeps sloping down.
Mr. Perry says when we limit ridge heights we usually
allow 24' to 25' and by allowing 27' we are allowing a
concession to the design of the house.
Dr. Dunwiddie says that is his poin~ exactly. He doesn't
see there is any compromise being offered here at all.
Mr. Wasierski and Mr. Kelliher agree commenting that he
though~that they were compromising at 27 feet.
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_~' ""':':"'"f:c-:~.,,;,' ~- ';;:;,r:il'1t~';''i_'<:- -,tl':-:~-~
Town of NQl1tuck.et
Conservation Commission
(508) 228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts.02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page E:
Mr. Krieger says they will withdraw the request; leave G:
written which he understands is 37'9" above sea level for a
maximum ridge height.
Mr. Was~erski says he thinks we should clarify #4 ~ith a
vote. They asked on the northeast end that 15' be establishej
and that if the house is made smaller that the line stays on
the plan a~ shown and that a straight line be drawn 15' from
corner to corner for the locat~on of the siltation fence whi::'"'\
then becomes the vegetated buffer.
Mr. Wasierski continues, #19 we are going to accept 37'9
as the ridge height above sea level.
Mr. Krieger continues with #21 which limits the project
septic to 3 bedrooms. Says they have asked for 4 bedrooms a~j
have designed a system that sufficiently protects the
interests of the by-laws to allow increased capacity. Under
the state there is a presumption that the system is in
compliance with Title V and the local by-laws and would not
have an adverse affect on the marsh.
Mr. Wasierski asks what was permitted ini,iihe superseding
order.
Mr. Perry states that a Superseding Order was never issued
as the applicant withdrew the appeal request.
Mr. Krieger says there was an approved septic plan for a
five bedroom house. They have up-graded the system and ask
the restriction be reconsidered.
Mr. Pel-ry adds but there i sonl y a three bedroom house
that Conservation Commission previously approved. Continues
that the previous discussion mentions the effect on fisheries
and shellfish, nitrate problems in the marsh area, and the
groundwater studies resulted in the local board of 'health
regulations. Says he polled the commission and they agreed :0
limit it to 3 bedrooms in the draft order.
Mr. Wasierski says he's in favor of keeping it three
bedrooms.
Mr. Kelliher says at the last meeting we discussed four
. bedrooms--three in the house and one in the garage and the
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Town of Nantucket
~. . 1- .',-- . ',''ii:--'
Conservatfbri:.f/Commission
(508) 228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
:r:~~m has a five b::::::gc:::~l::.fo:a::n:tl:: ::9:hE ::::t::
Dr. Dunwiddie says he do.esn" t see anything in the notes to
indicate anything other than that's what was filed for, not
what we recommend.
Mr. Kelliher says we didn'tl shoot it down either.
Mr. Shugrue says the system is outside your jurisdiction.
Mr. Burke says as I understood it a five bedroom system
was approved under the old laws. Then because of concerns of
the commission, to make absolutely sure we were protecting the
wetlands we spent the time and money to design a new system as
a compromise to make sure we could comply with your latest
regs. AsI understand the Board of Health ok'd for five. We
compromised and said we would have 4 bedrooms. To my
knowledge no one put forth any information that this would
hurt the marsh.
Dr. Dunwiddie says it's a situation we have been dealing
with for years on the commission of incremental contamination
of ecosystems. You can't say that one more bedroom is going
to be the straw that breaks the camel's back and all of a
sudden Nantucket Harbor is going to be polluted. No one is
ever going to say that. But you get 100 applicants like you
all adding one more bedroom to their house and all of a sudden
you have a significant input. But you're just one person so
what are we supposed to do? We've-been sitting here for years
watching one applicant after another come in with bigger and
bigger houses. Ten years ago the average house size was
probably half what it is now.
Mr.. Burke says we have spent a lot more money to have a
mopnded system. We didn't ask for a five bedroom system.
We've asked for a four.
Mr. Perry says even if the old approved design is for five
bedrooms the Cons~rvation Commission order only allowed three
bedrooms in the house if it was ever built no matter what the
design size was.
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Townpf;i Nl!IDNek~t
Conse rva Hon Commission
~
(5Ot0228-7280
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
au t $ 7~~ ~:~r~:r ::&;:;; :;::;::;~;:::;;d :;~~;~~.~Ta::h: ;a::
bedroom hous....right close with;n \i'oUrjUr'iSdiCti~~.
23
Mr. Wilson marvels we allowed 12 bedroom houses?
Mr. Wasierskisays I think we should st'ick wi~h what was
the original condition of the lot size whith is 600 t 700 sq.
ft. less than what is proposed. blallowingit to be larger
than what was originally permitted in the building envelope,
what we are giving size-wise maybe wecouid be given back
bedroom-wise. Or maybe we should t:ondition it to the original
size.
Mr. Krieger asks if ther-e is any support On the commission
for four bedrooms.
Dr. Dunwiddle says youbetterpbll the /commission on this
one.
Mr. Wilson says we've all(;)wed the size of the house and
the boathouse. Weare just n(;)t a.lldwing a bedroom. in the
boathouse. If they make the house smaller I'd be more willing
to allow the four bedrooms.
Mr. Kelliher says he goes along with three plus one.
Mrs. Hussey says keep the three bedrooms. Asks what are
the concerns.
Mr. Perry says the concerns are about pollution, shellfish
and the saltmarsh.
Mrs. Hussey says those are my concerns. Are we allowed to
be concerned outside of 100 I .
Mr. Perry says the local by-law is more strict than the
state act.
Mr. Burke says he thinks everyone here is concerned.
Whether the contern is shellfish or'saltmarsh. And that is
why after the first meeting we redesigned the system and asked
for four bedrooms.
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Town of 'N~tuckfjt
Conservation . Commission
(508) 228-723i{
10 South Beach Street
N antueket, Massachusetts 02~54
, .
Meeting Minutes for JU['e 13, 1991
MOTION: To issue the certificate is made and
seconded.
UNANIMOUS !
Page 30
h. Soderberg - FSt. - SE4S-320 - (60.1.2-3)
MOTION: To continue foradditio~al information is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
i. Pfaff - Alabama Ave. - SE48-463 - (60-130>
MOTION: To continue for additional information is
made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
j. Nash - 1 Eastol'l St. - SE48-269 - (42.1..4-6)
Mr. Willet reads the inspection report.
Mr. Perry says there was some discussion on where to go
from, here. He talked with Mr. Bachman and it seeflls they have
lost 2 vertical feet of sand right at the base of the bulkhead
in the last 2 months.
Mr. Emack says we met with them today and spoke about ways
to support the bulkhead. A couple of months ago we talked
about replenishment and they anticipate 90in9 that. They are
having someone t.ake a look at it rather than discuss it
tonight and perhaps come back with something concrete as soon
as possible.
MOTION: To issue the Certificate is made and
seconded.
UNANIMOUS
4. EXTENSION
a. Sherburne - Bulkhead Repair - (42.2.4-1) - SE48-435
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Town of Nantucket
Conservation Cornmission
't'
(508) 22~7280
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June
13, 1991 Page 31
rep 1 acement. The,
,
Mr. Perry says this is for the bulkhead
are going to finish it this winter.
MOTION: To approve the extension is made and
seconded.
UNANIMOUS
b. Brooks - 63 W. Chester St. - SE48-502 - (41-222)
Mr. Perry says this was voted on at the last meeting but
the certificate was not signed.
5. PLANNING BOARD REFERRALS
6. OTHER BUSINESS
a. Pageau - Otokomi Rd. - NAN-007 -(56-197) - minor mod
Present for the applicant is Leo Asadoorian.
Mr. Perry says last fall we asked them to come back when
they got building envelopes and request as a minor
modification. Says there are two rectangles in which they
are going to squeeze a house and a garage.
Mr. Asadooriansays special condition #17 they are
required to come back for all the footprints and any decks,
landscaping, driveway.
Mr. Perry says the construction is outside of 50'.
MOTION: To accept as a minor modification is made and
seconded.
UNANIMOUS
b. Nash - 1 Easton St. - SE48-269 - (42.1.4-6) discussion
Mr. Perry says there was some discussion on where to go
from here. He talked with Mr. Bachman and it seems they have
lost 2 vertical feet of sand right at the base of the bulkhead
in the last 2 months.
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Town ,of Nantucket
Conservation Commission
(508) 228-723(1
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
Meeting Minutes for June 13, 1991
Page 32
Mr. Emack says we met with them today and spoke about ways
to support the bulkhead. A couple of months ago we talked
about replenishment andthjy'a~ticipate doing -that. They are
having someone take a 1001< at it rather than discuss it
tonight and perhaps come back with something concrete as soon
as possible.
c. Conservation Restricti~n policy discussion
Mr. Perry says a coup~e of meetings ago there was a draft
policy statement citing wetland protection goals and interests
that the Land Council had requested we review.
Ms. Creighton says they are attempting to develop a policy
to ease going through the process with the selectmen.
Mr. Willet says he thinks we should endorse this.
MOTION: To accept the policy as drafted is made and
seconded.
UNANIMOUS
d. Get mileage vouchers in by end of fiscal year
7. CORRESPONDENCE
8. MINUTES: for May 30, 1991
MOTION: To accept the minutes was made and seconded.
UNANIMOUS
9. BILLS TO BE PAID
10. FIELD INSPECTIONS - Monday, 3une 24, 1991, 4:00 pm
D.EXECUTIVE SESSION
At 10:30 the commissioners were polled and voted to go
into executive session and not to reconvene in open session.
1. Litigation
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.'"
Town of Nantucket
Conservation Commission
(508) 228-7230
10 South Beach Street
Nantucket, Massachusetts 02554
2.
Meeting M!'nutes for June 13, 1991
Approval of Minutes May , 1991
MOTION: To adjourn he meeting at 10:35 was made and
seconded.
Page 33
UNANIMOUS
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